Kirk's Celebrity Status

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I was reading this thread earlier and wanted to revisit its main topic of discussion. How much of a celebrity was James T. Kirk?

My sense is that people of the 24th century thought of him as a legend, but I'm not convinced that everyone who lived during Kirk's heyday felt the same way. Although he was certainly well-liked and respected (for the most part) by his peers in Starfleet, Kirk was probably viewed by other officers as a colleague, acquaintance or friend rather than some sort of iconic figure.

Consider the following examples: when Khan references how he and his people came to be on Ceti Alpha V, he seems surprised that Clark Terrell has no knowledge of the events in question, to which Terrell replies that he's never even met Kirk (let alone heard some random story about him). Later, when Terrell finally does meet Kirk, he seems to treat him as though he were any other officer, while showing him the appropriate amount of respect given the difference in their ranks.

J.T. Esteban's backstory suggests he and Kirk were old friends, but he never so much as mentions Kirk's name. The only time he says anything even remotely related to the Enterprise is when he has Starfleet notified that Spock's torpedo tube landed on Genesis' surface.

It's not clear what Styles thinks of Kirk (though the novels have suggested they didn't like each other), as he only warns Kirk via a brief ship-to-ship transmission not to defy Starfleet's orders and take the Enterprise away from spacedock.

--Sran

 

[C.E. Evans]

Kirk might have been relatively well-known during the time of the TOS movies if his 5-year mission had a number of encounters of historical or unprecedented note, but was probably no more a celebrity than Picard was during TNG. Many people in the fleet may have heard Kirk's name mentioned once or twice during various news reports or mission briefings, but that's about it.

Kirk might not even have become really famous (or infamous) throughout the fleet until the 24th-Century, IMO, if many of his exploits had become required reading at the Academy by then.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Yeah, I'm not too nuts about the idea of Kirk being a celebrity in his time. After all, how many members of our modern-day military are known to the general public? I guess I could see it happening by the time of TNG, after more of his missions were declassified.

You seem to find a lot of the celebrity Kirk thing in the tie-in fiction rather than in the shows or movies.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Kirk might have been relatively well-known during the time of the TOS movies if his 5-year mission had a number of encounters of historical or unprecedented note, but was probably no more a celebrity than Picard was during TNG.

That's a good point; Picard's situation was a little different because he had already been the captain of the Stargazer before getting the Enterprise (and his Enterprise was the Federation flag-ship), but most of his peers treated him like any other officer. Nog had a throwaway line about Picard being a legend during DS9's last season, but he was a junior officer and looked up to command-level officers (as he clearly admired Sisko, too).

--Sran

 

[T'Girl]

Admiral Necheyev usually treated Captain Picard like something greasy she noticed on the bottom of her shoe.

Kirk might have briefly been in the press for saving the Fed President, but without looking it up, how many here can remember the name of the secret service agent who took a bullet for Reagan?

I would imagine that a lot of Kirk's exploits during TOS would have been considered typical for a starship captain.

 

[Karzak]

Kirk was obviously Starfleet's bad boy. I don't know that I'd say he was a celebrity in his own time (at least, not till the 23rd century bits of Star Trek Generations) but rather that he was the troublemaking cousin of all the other captains in the fleet. The guy who always got himself into and out of trouble, and who you always admire but whose messes you rarely wanted to find yourself in.

In this sense, the JJ Abrams films perfectly captured this aspect of Kirk's persona.

 

[Timo]

When Terrell says he has never met Admiral Kirk, it really sounds as if he immediately knows who this Admiral is, and also that everybody should know this. Basically, he laments he hasn't met the celebrity yet.

What Terrell does later on is the doing of Ceti Eels anyway...

Being one out of a dozen Constitution skippers might be reason for fame within Starfleet, especially if Kirk is exceptionally young for the job and has already done something exceptional. Although that last bit may be very difficult in Starfleet - even the mission to the edge of the galaxy, supposedly the first of its kind, could be pretty humdrum because it wasn't a complete success or a complete failure, making Kirk neither Amundsen nor Scott.

Being an Admiral out of a few dozen might be a much better spot in the limelights, from the Starfleet point of view. For starters, more people would deal with him professionally. In ST:TMP, his career would still be skyrocketing, regardless of any other feats of distinction. And by ST2, the career might be over but everybody would know the Academy Commandant one way or another.

The general public might lose sight of Kirk the Hero when he becomes a kingpin Starfleet administrator, and just sigh "Yet another Starfleet scandal!" with the Genesis events, but it wouldn't take much spin-doctoring to make Kirk a celebrity after ST4...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

I was reading this thread earlier and wanted to revisit its main topic of discussion. How much of a celebrity was James T. Kirk?

My sense is that people of the 24th century thought of him as a legend, but I'm not convinced that everyone who lived during Kirk's heyday felt the same way. Although he was certainly well-liked and respected (for the most part) by his peers in Starfleet, Kirk was probably viewed by other officers as a colleague, acquaintance or friend rather than some sort of iconic figure.

Consider the following examples: when Khan references how he and his people came to be on Ceti Alpha V, he seems surprised that Clark Terrell has no knowledge of the events in question, to which Terrell replies that he's never even met Kirk (let alone heard some random story about him). Later, when Terrell finally does meet Kirk, he seems to treat him as though he were any other officer, while showing him the appropriate amount of respect given the difference in their ranks.

J.T. Esteban's backstory suggests he and Kirk were old friends, but he never so much as mentions Kirk's name. The only time he says anything even remotely related to the Enterprise is when he has Starfleet notified that Spock's torpedo tube landed on Genesis' surface.

It's not clear what Styles thinks of Kirk (though the novels have suggested they didn't like each other), as he only warns Kirk via a brief ship-to-ship transmission not to defy Starfleet's orders and take the Enterprise away from spacedock.

--Sran

Gene Roddenberry's novelization of TMP covers Kirk's celebrity status:


Unfortunately, Starfleet's enthusiasm affected even those who chronicled our adventures, and we were painted somewhat larger than life, especially myself.

Eventually, I found that I had been fictionalized into some sort of "modern Ulysses" and it has been painful to see my command decisions of those years so widely applauded, whereas the plain facts are that ninety-four of our crew met violent deaths during those years - and many of them would still be alive if I had acted either more quickly or more wisely. Nor have I been as foolishly courageous as depicted. I have never happily invited injury; I have disliked in the extreme every duty circumstance which has required me to risk my life. But there appears to be something in the nature of depicters of popular events which leads them into the habit of exaggeration. As a result, I have become determined that if I ever again found myself involved in an affair attracting public attention, I would insist that some way be found to tell the story more accurately.
(P. 7-8)

It's implying that TOS was actually an in-universe dramatization of Kirk's mission!

 

[MacLeod]

Yeah, I'm not too nuts about the idea of Kirk being a celebrity in his time. After all, how many members of our modern-day military are known to the general public? I guess I could see it happening by the time of TNG, after more of his missions were declassified.

You seem to find a lot of the celebrity Kirk thing in the tie-in fiction rather than in the shows or movies.

I don't think using today's navies is a good example. I think one has to go back to days of sail and the age of exploration. For example how well was Admiral Lord Nelson known in his day, or Captain Cook, Christopher Columbus etc...

 

[MarsWeeps]

J.T. Esteban's backstory suggests he and Kirk were old friends,

Backstory from where? Some novel? I don't remember anything on screen about it.

 

[EnriqueH]

Part of me prefers Kirk not being much of a celebrity in his time because he's an "astronaut" or military type.

But it's not far fetched either.

I remember General Norman Schwarzkopf being a media darling during the first Desert Storm. (Was Patton a pop culture celebrity while he was alive?)

I can see Kirk, being the youngest captain and a good looking guy, being a poster boy for Starfleet recruiters and being montage news.

 

[Commishsleer]

Consider the following examples: when Khan references how he and his people came to be on Ceti Alpha V, he seems surprised that Clark Terrell has no knowledge of the events in question, to which Terrell replies that he's never even met Kirk (let alone heard some random story about him). Later, when Terrell finally does meet Kirk, he seems to treat him as though he were any other officer, while showing him the appropriate amount of respect given the difference in their ranks.

--Sran

Terrell says he's never met Admiral Kirk.
Unlike you I interpreted that as meaning he's never been lucky enough to meet the Admiral. That Terrell is not high enough in the Starfleet hierarchy mix with Admirals.
That he gets stuck with boring planet finding jobs.

Never did I get the impression that Terrell does not know-of Kirk and his exploits. Probably not in detail though. I bet you he knows Kirk and co (including Chekov) saved the Earth from Vger though

Later on when Terrell met Kirk he was under eel-influence so its hard to judge what his genuine reaction would be.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Kirk was obviously Starfleet's bad boy.

Maybe from a 24th-Century perspective, but not so much during the 23rd-Century until he stole the Enterprise (he had more a reputation from friends as often being very serious and driven up until then).

It really isn't until the Abramsverse, that we see him as a bad boy from an early age.

Frustration over not being able to win the Kobayashi Maru Test at the Academy and wanting to do something about it is what both versions of Kirk shared, but I'm inclined to think that each handled it differently (I don't think the Prime version of Kirk was smug, cocky, and eating an apple during the test, but took the whole thing very seriously).

 

[The Wormhole]

Kirk might have been relatively well-known during the time of the TOS movies if his 5-year mission had a number of encounters of historical or unprecedented note, but was probably no more a celebrity than Picard was during TNG.

That's a good point; Picard's situation was a little different because he had already been the captain of the Stargazer before getting the Enterprise (and his Enterprise was the Federation flag-ship), but most of his peers treated him like any other officer. Nog had a throwaway line about Picard being a legend during DS9's last season, but he was a junior officer and looked up to command-level officers (as he clearly admired Sisko, too).

--Sran

Picard certainly seemed to be the cock of the walk in the 24th century. There are numerous references to him as one of Starfleet's greats in DS9 and Voyager. Species 8472 even considers him a role model for Starfleet officers, despite never meeting him. And even in TNG, we have Geordi noting he read about Picard and the Stargazer at the Academy, and Conspiracy suggests he might have held a record for quickest promotion to captain.

As for Kirk, the movie era definitely suggests he was one of Starfleet's more well-known officers. Certainly saving the planet from a probe tearing up the oceans to say hi to the whales and then having a discipline hearing presided over by the Federation President himself is going to land you in the news headlines, and we saw in Generations half the reporters sent to report on the launch of the Enterprise B were more interested in talking to Kirk than in the ship itself.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Kirk commanded missions that literally saved Earth from destruction in both The Motion Picture and The Voyage Home.

So that's may have been the point when he achieved "celebrity" status, as evidenced in Generations. During the time of his five-year mssion he probably was only known within fleet circles though.

I reckon his celebrity status during the movie era was somewhat comparable to that of famous contemporary military leaders (think Norman Schwarzkopf, Colin Powell prior to becoming Secretary of State, or David Petraeus).

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Politicians don't like currently serving officers to be heroes. That would be handing over control of the narrative they are trying to create to somebody else. They much prefer previously serving officers to be legends.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Never did I get the impression that Terrell does not know-of Kirk and his exploits. Probably not in detail though. I bet you he knows Kirk and co (including Chekov) saved the Earth from Vger though

You misunderstood my point. I'm sure Terrell knew who Kirk was (and as Chekov was his first officer, I'm sure he read several of Kirk's evaluations of the former), but I also believed him when he said he'd never met him. You don't have know someone personally to who he or she is or be aware of there exploits.

For example, I know who David Mack is and have read several of his books. But if someone were surprised I'd never heard the story about the time he stepped in chewing gum, I might react the same way Terrell did, as it's unlikely I'd know something that specific about someone I've never met.

Later on when Terrell met Kirk he was under eel-influence so its hard to judge what his genuine reaction would be.

Eel influence or no, I'm sure Terrell's reaction to Kirk's being there was genuine. Terrell had been a starship captain for almost twenty years by the time of TWOK; meeting a superior officer--even someone with Kirk's reputation--probably didn't phase him that much, if at all. Terrell was a highly-regarded commanding officer and had more than earned his stripes commanding the Reliant and the Sagittarius.

--Sran

 

[EnriqueH]

Where can I read more about Captain Terrell?

Terrell: How do I look?

Chekov: Like sheet, keptin.

Terrell: Yo, momma.

What can I say? Sometimes, I amuse myself. But I do want to know: I liked Terrell. I wish he hadn't died.

 

[Timo]

Kirk saved the Earth several times, the Federation a couple of times, and the entire universe once ("The Alternative Factor"). He did most of those things during his five-year mission already; he wasn't beatified or made Dictator for Life at return, though.

One is tempted to think that this is merely par for the course for Starfleet starship captains, and that Klingon and Nyberrite skippers also do their bit in making tomorrow happen. After all, while Kirk is referred to in the 24th century, his specific televised and filmed exploits are not.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Where can I read more about Captain Terrell?

Terrell: How do I look?

Chekov: Like sheet, keptin.

Terrell: Yo, momma.

What can I say? Sometimes, I amuse myself. But I do want to know: I liked Terrell. I wish he hadn't died.

Nice Terminator reference! If you like Terrell, I'd recommend the Vanguard and Seekers novels, as he's a recurring character in the first series and a main character in the second.

--Sran