Kirk saved Spock Prime (and vice versa)?

[Franklin]

There has been some debate on these boards about why Spock Prime was apparently living in a cave when a Starfleet outpost was so close by. Also, some have wondered if Nimoy's role in the movie was really necessary. That it didn't "feel" meaty enough. Did he really do much? After watching the movie again, I'm convinced of two things. First, Kirk saved his life. Second, Spock Prime did alter the future.

Spock Prime was emotionally crippled when Kirk came across him. Perhaps he was in such deep shock he didn't even consider saving himself. That's probably why he didn't venture to the Starfleet outpost. Spock Prime apologized to Kirk for there being some unavoidable "emotional transference" in a mind meld. Some. And, Kirk could barely deal with it. Spock Prime must've been a hopeless mess.

But Kirk's fortuitous arrival seemed to give him hope and got his mind working again. Kirk is here. If Kirk is here, there must be a chance. When he finds out Kirk is not in command of the Enterprise, that's the point at which he decides to take matters into his own hands.
Had he not convinced Kirk to take command, it's likely Kirk's Starfleet career would've ended ignominiously. Further, young Spock probably would've resigned from Starfleet, too. That's where Spock Prime "cheated." He didn't directly help them defeat Nero, he did nothing heroic himself, but he nudged events in a different direction. He knew he was giving Starfleet its best chance to win and giving his friend a chance to fulfill his destiny. Hence, he beams Kirk back on board the Enterprise. For all we know, saying Mr. Scott would've invented the formula anyway was merely a "deception."

I keep wishing that when they parted, Spock Prime would've repeated a line to Kirk he used on him in TWOK. "Commanding a starship is your first, best destiny. Anything else is a waste of material."

 

[indranee]

There has been some debate on these boards about why Spock Prime was apparently living in a cave when a Starfleet outpost was so close by. Also, some have wondered if Nimoy's role in the movie was really necessary. That it didn't "feel" meaty enough. Did he really do much? After watching the movie again, I'm convinced of two things. First, Kirk saved his life. Second, Spock Prime did alter the future.

Spock Prime was emotionally crippled when Kirk came across him. Perhaps he was in such deep shock he didn't even consider saving himself. That's probably why he didn't venture to the Starfleet outpost. Spock Prime apologized to Kirk for there being some unavoidable "emotional transference" in a mind meld. Some. And, Kirk could barely deal it. Spock Prime must've been a hopeless mess.

But Kirk's fortuitous arrival seemed to give him hope and got his mind working again. Kirk is here. If Kirk is here, there must be a chance. When he finds out Kirk is not in command of the Enterprise, that's the point at which he decides to take matters into his own hands.
Had he not convinced Kirk to take command, it's likely Kirk's Starfleet career would've ended ignominiously. Further, young Spock probably would've resigned from Starfleet, too. That's where Spock Prime "cheated." He didn't directly help them defeat Nero, he did nothing heroic himself, but he nudged events in a different direction. He knew he was giving Starfleet its best chance to win and giving his friend a chance to fulfill his destiny. Hence, he beams Kirk back on board the Enterprise. For all we know, saying Mr. Scott would've invented the formula anyway was merely a "deception."

I keep wishing that when they parted, Spock Prime would've repeated a line to Kirk he used on him in TWOK. "Commanding a starship is your first, best destiny. Anything else is a waste of material."

a very well thought out post. I agree. I have wondered exactly why Spock Prime came across as so emotional -- ascribing it to his chance meeting with the young Kirk (a friend he had lost without having a chance to save him, a friend who had "always known he'd die alone"). but it's not just that. it was a mutually beneficial relationship -- something it's always been in the Prime universe. Spock -- even now logical to the core -- saw that, and in some deeper core was moved almost to tears by it, and by Kirk's connection -- possibly, in every single timeline -- to himself.

I know this movie has flaws -- big ones. but it moves me, touches me in a very deep, vulnerable place... because of the treatment it gave its relationships.

 

[Jeri]

Franklin, good explanation. Even Orci didn't explain the "cheating" bit so well. He sort of indicated that Kirk's comment about Spock cheating was dodgy, because Spock didn't choose to come back in time.

But you are right; the place where Spock "cheated" was when he took matters into his own hands. To me it's not a cheat; I agree with his reasoning. It's fixing something.

I think Jim agreed, of course, since he was using Spock's example to explain his own "cheating."

 

[indranee]

Jeri, yes. and I also wondered how NuSpock took it so well in the end. when they both are on the bridge, and somebody says "Captain", check their reaction. Only Kirk answers. one would think Spock just might, but no... he's by now completely comfortable with Kirk as the Captain. he only wants to be "at his side".

Prime Spock knows this. so he was fixing things.

I agree with Franklin in that they missed a golden opportunity to Easter egg that "First, Best Destiny" line. I'm even more surprised because Orci is such a big fan of not only TWOK but also Diane Carey's "Best Destiny".

 

[scottydog]

Ironic that it took a Vulcan being "emotionally compromised" to make things right.

This movie was damn-near perfect. Little loose ends remain, but threads like this help me resolve them.

Here's another related loose end: Didn't it seem like young Spock was convinced a little too easily by Old Spock to remain in Starfleet? Young Spock's logic was impeccable; with so few remaining Vulcans, his genes, wisdom and very presence were all desperately needed to rebuild the people and the culture. I wonder of Spock Prime's advice was really doing their race any favors. Clearly, Young Spock's choice to stay in Starfleet is a win for us because now we get to see future rebooted stories with him on the Enterprise!

 

[Jeri]

indranee, maybe the line would have been too much, I don't know. But everybody seemed to come away from the movie with the theme of "destiny" anyway, so I think the point was made.

Great example about Spock on the bridge! I just loved it when in the Jellyfish, Spock called him "Jim." I always laugh when Jim keeps insisting, "Spock, it'll work!" Then the almost imperceptible nod of assent. The trust was there. Just a golden, golden scene.

Gawd, I have so many books to read...

 

[indranee]

Ironic that it took a Vulcan being "emotionally compromised" to make things right.

This movie was damn-near perfect. Little loose ends remain, but threads like this help me resolve them.

Here's another related loose end: Didn't it seem like young Spock was convinced a little too easily by Old Spock to remain in Starfleet? Young Spock's logic was impeccable; with so few remaining Vulcans, his genes, wisdom and very presence were all desperately needed to rebuild the people and the culture. I wonder of Spock Prime's advice was really doing their race any favors. Clearly, Young Spock's choice to stay in Starfleet is a win for us because now we get to see future rebooted stories with him on the Enterprise!

I ascribe it to Spock wanting to stay "at Kirk's side", despite everything. it's the beginning of that friendship -- the one that Spock emphasizes to both Kirk and his younger version.

Edith Keeler was right.

 

[scottydog]

Ironic that it took a Vulcan being "emotionally compromised" to make things right.

This movie was damn-near perfect. Little loose ends remain, but threads like this help me resolve them.

Here's another related loose end: Didn't it seem like young Spock was convinced a little too easily by Old Spock to remain in Starfleet? Young Spock's logic was impeccable; with so few remaining Vulcans, his genes, wisdom and very presence were all desperately needed to rebuild the people and the culture. I wonder of Spock Prime's advice was really doing their race any favors. Clearly, Young Spock's choice to stay in Starfleet is a win for us because now we get to see future rebooted stories with him on the Enterprise!

I ascribe it to Spock wanting to stay "at Kirk's side", despite everything. it's the beginning of that friendship -- the one that Spock emphasizes to both Kirk and his younger version.

Indeed. Then this thread could just as easily have been entitled "Spock saved Spock" instead of Kirk saving Spock.

Edith Keeler was right.

Holy crap, I forgot that Edith noticed this! Awesome.

 

[indranee]

Indeed. Then this thread could just as easily have been entitled "Spock saved Spock" instead of Kirk saving Spock.

it's mutual.

 

[Jeri]

Hi, scottydog. I can only tell you that if an older me came back in time and explained my situation, I'd do whatever she said. But of course, indranee's right; those two know they have a bond forged in fire.

I wonder if Spock really would be the ideal person to help rebuild Vulcan. Sarek is glad Spock will always be a child of two worlds. We need him here.

 

[indranee]

Hi, scottydog. I can only tell you that if an older me came back in time and explained my situation, I'd do whatever she said. But of course, indranee's right; those two know they have a bond forged in fire.

I wonder if Spock really would be the ideal person to help rebuild Vulcan. Sarek is glad Spock will always be a child of two worlds. We need him here.

and now he can be a man IN two worlds

what you wrote above about listening to an older self reminded me of E2 (an ENT episode). did you ever watch it?

very interesting stuff. T'Pol's older self basically told her to "stay with Trip".

 

[Franklin]

Ironic that it took a Vulcan being "emotionally compromised" to make things right.

This movie was damn-near perfect. Little loose ends remain, but threads like this help me resolve them.

Here's another related loose end: Didn't it seem like young Spock was convinced a little too easily by Old Spock to remain in Starfleet? Young Spock's logic was impeccable; with so few remaining Vulcans, his genes, wisdom and very presence were all desperately needed to rebuild the people and the culture. I wonder of Spock Prime's advice was really doing their race any favors. Clearly, Young Spock's choice to stay in Starfleet is a win for us because now we get to see future rebooted stories with him on the Enterprise!

I ascribe it to Spock wanting to stay "at Kirk's side", despite everything. it's the beginning of that friendship -- the one that Spock emphasizes to both Kirk and his younger version.

Edith Keeler was right.

scottydog: It's not like Spock couldn't have contributed his genes in, shall we say, more clinical ways. Spock Prime's wisdom will mean more than Spock's at this point in his young life. He is accumulating his wisdom.
I wonder if Spock really didn't need much convincing to stay in Starfleet. I think he wanted to stay there, and may have been actually relieved to hear Spock Prime essentially agree and urge him to stay. Let's face it, though he'd never admit it, Spock was something of an adrenaline junky. And then there's his curiosity to sate.

indranee: I wonder too, if this is where this Spock realizes he doesn't want command. He didn't exactly shine and exude leadership at the job in time of crisis. He was "by the book." Further, given what happened, he probably should've realized he was compromised long before Kirk had to be beaten by him to prove it.
I think Spock finally found merit in Kirk's insistance that one must always fight the no-win scenario as if there's at least a chance to win. Still that young Spock doing something with only a 4.5 percent chance is probably just being a fatalist carrying out an order. But young Kirk taking the same chance is (and always will be) doing it as a sincere optimist, wondering what he'll have for dinner after he succeeds. What Spock learned over time was to appreciate Kirk's feeling. Hence, Spock Prime wishes Spock, "Good luck."

 

[Jeri]

and now he can be a man IN two worlds

what you wrote above about listening to an older self reminded me of E2 (an ENT episode). did you ever watch it?

very interesting stuff. T'Pol's older self basically told her to "stay with Trip".

I haven't seen that ep in a year or two, but I love ENT. I thoroughly enjoy the Vulcan episodes, of which there are a lot.

 

[indranee]

Ironic that it took a Vulcan being "emotionally compromised" to make things right.

This movie was damn-near perfect. Little loose ends remain, but threads like this help me resolve them.

Here's another related loose end: Didn't it seem like young Spock was convinced a little too easily by Old Spock to remain in Starfleet? Young Spock's logic was impeccable; with so few remaining Vulcans, his genes, wisdom and very presence were all desperately needed to rebuild the people and the culture. I wonder of Spock Prime's advice was really doing their race any favors. Clearly, Young Spock's choice to stay in Starfleet is a win for us because now we get to see future rebooted stories with him on the Enterprise!

I ascribe it to Spock wanting to stay "at Kirk's side", despite everything. it's the beginning of that friendship -- the one that Spock emphasizes to both Kirk and his younger version.

Edith Keeler was right.

scottydog: It's not like Spock couldn't have contributed his genes in, shall we say, more clinical ways. Spock Prime's wisdom will mean more than Spock's at this point in his young life. He is accumulating his wisdom.
I wonder if Spock really didn't need much convincing to stay in Starfleet. I think he wanted to stay there, and may have been actually relieved to hear Spock Prime essentially agree and urge him to stay. Let's face it, though he'd never admit it, Spock was something of an adrenaline junky. And then there's his curiosity to sate.

indranee: I wonder too, if this is where this Spock realizes he doesn't want command. He didn't exactly shine and exude leadership at the job in time of crisis. He was "by the book." Further, given what happened, he probably should've realized he was compromised long before Kirk had to be beaten by him to prove it.
I think Spock finally found merit in Kirk's insistance that one must always fight the no-win scenario as if there's at least a chance to win. Still that young Spock doing something with only a 4.5 percent chance is probably just being a fatalist carrying out an order. But young Kirk taking the same chance is (and always will be) doing it as a sincere optimist, wondering what he'll have for dinner after he succeeds. What Spock learned over time was to appreciate Kirk's feeling. Hence, Spock Prime wishes Spock, "Good luck."

Jeri, yep. hence, in the end, young Spock says to Kirk: "Captain, what are you doing?"

he questions his order, but with no sense of the haughty "you shouldn't BE here, punk" attitude that he had toward Kirk before. Kirk has earned some of his stripes in Spock's eyes.

 

[mythicdove]

I keep wishing that when they parted, Spock Prime would've repeated a line to Kirk he used on him in TWOK. "Commanding a starship is your first, best destiny. Anything else is a waste of material."

Oh now that would have been amazing. I really would have loved that.

One of things I loved was Spock Prime's statement to Kirk: "I have been and always shall be your friend."

 

[M'Sharak]

...

I agree with Franklin in that they missed a golden opportunity to Easter egg that "First, Best Destiny" line. I'm even more surprised because Orci is such a big fan of not only TWOK but also Diane Carey's "Best Destiny".

indranee, maybe the line would have been too much, I don't know. But everybody seemed to come away from the movie with the theme of "destiny" anyway, so I think the point was made.
...

I think you may be right in saying that it could have been too much.

There were a few instances where the writers dropped in lines -- intended as nods to lines spoken in earlier installments by the original cast -- which came across to me as being perhaps a little too obvious: McCoy's walkoff "Green-blooded hogoblin!" and Scotty's "I'm giving her all she's got, Captain!" are two which come to mind. These set off the "Oh, come on!" detector for me, and I don't think that's what they were intended to do.

I think that in the instance Franklin brings up, that the line was implied without actually being spoken aloud managed to get it across pretty nicely anyway.

 

[scottydog]

Thank you, Franklin, Jeri, and indranee. You all are much wiser than I am.

 

[The rapture]

There has been some debate on these boards about why Spock Prime was apparently living in a cave when a Starfleet outpost was so close by. Also, some have wondered if Nimoy's role in the movie was really necessary. That it didn't "feel" meaty enough. Did he really do much? After watching the movie again, I'm convinced of two things. First, Kirk saved his life. Second, Spock Prime did alter the future.

Spock Prime was emotionally crippled when Kirk came across him. Perhaps he was in such deep shock he didn't even consider saving himself. That's probably why he didn't venture to the Starfleet outpost. Spock Prime apologized to Kirk for there being some unavoidable "emotional transference" in a mind meld. Some. And, Kirk could barely deal with it. Spock Prime must've been a hopeless mess.

But Kirk's fortuitous arrival seemed to give him hope and got his mind working again. Kirk is here. If Kirk is here, there must be a chance. When he finds out Kirk is not in command of the Enterprise, that's the point at which he decides to take matters into his own hands.
Had he not convinced Kirk to take command, it's likely Kirk's Starfleet career would've ended ignominiously. Further, young Spock probably would've resigned from Starfleet, too. That's where Spock Prime "cheated." He didn't directly help them defeat Nero, he did nothing heroic himself, but he nudged events in a different direction. He knew he was giving Starfleet its best chance to win and giving his friend a chance to fulfill his destiny. Hence, he beams Kirk back on board the Enterprise. For all we know, saying Mr. Scott would've invented the formula anyway was merely a "deception."

I keep wishing that when they parted, Spock Prime would've repeated a line to Kirk he used on him in TWOK. "Commanding a starship is your first, best destiny. Anything else is a waste of material."

Hmmmm interesting.

But Spock tells Kirk that there is an outpost there. So he had the means to rescue himself. Had Kirk not done anything, Earth would of been destroyed. Nero would of kept going on destroying plants.

My 2 questions would be
1) Did Nero blow up the Klingon home world in order to avenge his time in the Prison?

and 2)I was wondering WHERE did Spock find the wood for the fire in the ice cave?

 

[Franklin]

I think that in the instance Franklin brings up, that the line was implied without actually being spoken aloud managed to get it across pretty nicely anyway.

Too many lines dropped like that could've gotten in the way. Maybe they could've traded out the tired, "I have been, and shall always be..." line from Spock Prime in exchange for that one. Especially since in this case, even if Spock Prime doesn't know it, speaking of command being Kirk's destiny in life has an entirely different meaning in this case.

There was one other place where I inserted my own little inside joke into the scene. When Uhura is on the transporter pad with Spock, as she walks away, she should've turned and said, "Spock, be careful." To which Kirk would reply to her, "WE will." TUC. McCoy to Spock after Spock tells Jim to be careful. Get it? Get it? Huh? Makes me laugh. God, it's fun to rewrite movies.

 

[Jeri]

I think that in the instance Franklin brings up, that the line was implied without actually being spoken aloud managed to get it across pretty nicely anyway.

Yeah, I did not have a problem with that scene and thought it was good. Franklin's explanation was nice, too.

Thank you, Franklin, Jeri, and indranee. You all are much wiser than I am.

Hey, you're a wise guy.