Kirk is better then Picard

[darkshadow0001]

I love both series, but after watching season one again I've been noticing that Kirk is the better Captain.

Why?

1) He makes decisions on his own (does not need a counselor, or second opinion)

2) He fights the bad guys instead of just placing them in a holding cell

3) He gets the women

4) He doesn't have to help an android become human

5) He does not need a number one. (Although Spock sometimes could be considered his number one)

Those are my reasons so far. I'm sure there are more reasons

 

[BillJ]

Word.

 

[John Picard]

Why is it so difficult to use the word "than"?

 

[trevanian]

No reason for a thread like this, since it is obvious Kirk is king (proving why it is good to be king), but just to play devil's advocate, and right off the top of my head:

Kirk gives Khan run of the ship.
Kirk gives the weird little kids run of the ship.
Kirk gives Mudd's women run of the ship.
Kirk doesn't have a security force that can ever keep the shuttlebay safe from hijackings.


On the plus side, Kirk IS capable of learning (he seems like a better character AFTER the ERRAND OF MERCY show, whereas what Picard is supposed to learn in Q WHO seems to just disappear from him faster than the hot chocolate staining his uniform.)

Kirk is often tortured, but he is nearly always FUN. Good combo, much better than bland and prick-like.

 

[JustKate]

Oh, he is not. Please. That is, Kirk is definitely not better than Picard, and Picard is neither bland nor prick-like. I know who I'd rather have commanding a ship I depended on, and it's definitely Picard, who:
1. Attempts to think before he acts. Seems like a pretty important quality for someone commanding the Federation's flagship.
2. Doesn't make fun of crew members in front of other crew members.
3. Listens to his officers before making a decision. Kirk often did not.
4. Can occasionally meet an attractive woman without having sex with her.
5. Cares more about his crew than his ship - I mean, come on, Kirk is in LOVE with the Enterprise.
6. Is capable of acting on his own, but at least considers Starfleet regulations before going off on his own. I mean, they both belong to Starfleet, right? They took oaths and stuff? So why does Picard take his oath so much more seriously than Kirk?
7. Thinks the Prime Directive is more than a nice little idea that can be discarded as needed.
8. Is one really classy and elegant man.
9. Is really, really sexy. Oh, yes he is. You guys may not have noticed that, but plenty of female Trek fans have. For one thing, there's that fab voice of his.

I could go on...but I've got work to do, so I won't for right now.

 

[Cakes488]

Oh, he is not. Please. That is, Kirk is definitely not better than Picard, and Picard is neither bland nor prick-like. I know who I'd rather have commanding a ship I depended on, and it's definitely Picard, who:
1. Attempts to think before he acts. Seems like a pretty important quality for someone commanding the Federation's flagship.
2. Doesn't make fun of crew members in front of other crew members.
3. Listens to his officers before making a decision. Kirk often did not.
4. Can occasionally meet an attractive woman without having sex with her.
5. Cares more about his crew than his ship - I mean, come on, Kirk is in LOVE with the Enterprise.
6. Is capable of acting on his own, but at least considers Starfleet regulations before going off on his own. I mean, they both belong to Starfleet, right? They took oaths and stuff? So why does Picard take his oath so much more seriously than Kirk?
7. Thinks the Prime Directive is more than a nice little idea that can be discarded as needed.
8. Is one really classy and elegant man.
9. Is really, really sexy. Oh, yes he is. You guys may not have noticed that, but plenty of female Trek fans have. For one thing, there's that fab voice of his.

I could go on...but I've got work to do, so I won't for right now.

As opposed to the voice I think it's more of an accent thing...we love our Brits....but that not much...no way is Picard better than Kirk! Without my beloved Kirk there would be no Picard...so let's have a little respect here in this thread huh?

 

[Alrik]

Oh boy. Time for some popcorn and a drink. This should be fun to sit back and watch.


On topic. Talk about a subjective statement. Both characters have their good points as well as the bad and both have a very loyal following that will fight to the bitter end to defend their possition. Saying one is better than the other is akin to starting a Coke is better than Pepsi (or vise versa) war. There really isn't a right or wrong answer, only personal opinion.

 

[JustKate]

^^ That's right - you had a crush on Kirk practically since you've been born, Cakes - I remember that now.

I think it's voice and accent - but that's because I love a deep voice in a man. I certainly don't dislike Kirk (I don't dislike any of our captains), and I agree with Trevanian that he is more fun than Picard. However, the way I look at it is who would I rather have as captain on a ship I was on? Well, that's Picard, perhaps because "fun" isn't way up on my list of qualifications for captain.

 

[JustKate]

Oh boy. Time for some popcorn and a drink. This should be fun to sit back and watch.


On topic. Talk about a subjective statement. Both characters have their good points as well as the bad and both have a very loyal following that will fight to the bitter end to defend their possition. Saying one is better than the other is akin to starting a Coke is better than Pepsi (or vise versa) war. There really isn't a right or wrong answer, only personal opinion.

That's absolutely true, of course. (It was Trevanian's "prick-like" comment that made me want to post. ) But yes, each has good points and bad points, and each would be "better" in some situations than the other. That's the plain fact.

And it's also a plain fact that what one person sees as a strength (e.g., my comment that Picard often consults his officers before making a decision) others (e.g., Darkshadow) will see as a flaw. But the plain fact there is that in some circumstances, this quality will prove admirable and in others not so much. Life is complicated even on imaginary starships.

 

[trevanian]

Oh boy. Time for some popcorn and a drink. This should be fun to sit back and watch.


On topic. Talk about a subjective statement. Both characters have their good points as well as the bad and both have a very loyal following that will fight to the bitter end to defend their possition. Saying one is better than the other is akin to starting a Coke is better than Pepsi (or vise versa) war. There really isn't a right or wrong answer, only personal opinion.

That's absolutely true, of course. (It was Trevanian's "prick-like" comment that made me want to post. ) But yes, each has good points and bad points, and each would be "better" in some situations than the other. That's the plain fact.

And it's also a plain fact that what one person sees as a strength (e.g., my comment that Picard often consults his officers before making a decision) others (e.g., Darkshadow) will see as a flaw. But the plain fact there is that in some circumstances, this quality will prove admirable and in others not so much. Life is complicated even on imaginary starships.

Picard, especially in second season, is such a prick -- and I don't know of any other word to sum it up, so that is why I used it -- that I cannot imagine anyone ever willingly serving under his command. Jellicoe may have been an asshole, but he was an effective commander, I could buy serving under him or Sisko, but Picard? Pompous retro commander who treats command like it is supposed to be cowtowed to like royalty, he plays picard at times like it is one of his Shakespearian english kings, but without the interesting foibles that make those charactes compelling. I think Stewart used to be a good actor, but Picard drained him of those talents (and to a certain degree, I suppose the same can be said of Shatner, who was more interesting 1958=62 than in his trek years.)

 

[JustKate]

Golly. I don't even know where to begin here, we disagree so completely. So I guess I'll just have to say that I disagree with just about everything you said, Trevanian - I mean, almost every word (aside from the fact that Jellico really is an asshole). It's amazing, really, as though we were watching two different shows. But last I checked, you have a perfect right to your own opinion, even if it differs significantly from mine.

 

[trevanian]

Golly. I don't even know where to begin here, we disagree so completely. So I guess I'll just have to say that I disagree with just about everything you said, Trevanian - I mean, almost every word (aside from the fact that Jellico really is an asshole). It's amazing, really, as though we were watching two different shows. But last I checked, you have a perfect right to your own opinion, even if it differs significantly from mine.

Yeah, pax.

It is like this lil bit of the internet became a peace zone in the last 24hrs. A couple of the more obnoxious posters who plague me on the newmovie forum got warnings and since then it seems like everybody is making nice. I love it.

 

[JustKate]

^ I tried to make myself do a kissy-face smiley, but sadly I'm just not a kissy-face kind of gal. It's just too...you know...sappy. But I am pretty sure we can find a way to overcome this crucial difference of opinion and become better, stronger, and yes, more tolerant people. Or something like that.

 

[trevanian]

I tried to make myself do a kissy-face smiley, but sadly I'm just not a kissy-face kind of gal. It's just too...you know...sappy. But I am pretty sure we can find a way to overcome this crucial difference of opinion and become better, stronger, and yes, more tolerant people. Or something like that.

Sounds good, and it is just as well about the smiley, because I haven't learned to speak emoticon. I'm finding English to be a lifelong learning effort, and that's my first language.

Failing all this, we can find a neutral party who has a pair of RockEmSockEm robots, paste Picard and Kirk faces on them, then have them duke it out, the way real old school fans settle their difs!

 

[darkshadow0001]

Oh boy. Time for some popcorn and a drink. This should be fun to sit back and watch.


On topic. Talk about a subjective statement. Both characters have their good points as well as the bad and both have a very loyal following that will fight to the bitter end to defend their possition. Saying one is better than the other is akin to starting a Coke is better than Pepsi (or vise versa) war. There really isn't a right or wrong answer, only personal opinion.

That's absolutely true, of course. (It was Trevanian's "prick-like" comment that made me want to post. ) But yes, each has good points and bad points, and each would be "better" in some situations than the other. That's the plain fact.

And it's also a plain fact that what one person sees as a strength (e.g., my comment that Picard often consults his officers before making a decision) others (e.g., Darkshadow) will see as a flaw. But the plain fact there is that in some circumstances, this quality will prove admirable and in others not so much. Life is complicated even on imaginary starships.

I never said I disliked Picard or how he does things, it's quite possible some people think Picard is great and he may be. He has done a lot in his time, and thought he was one of the greats of the 24th Century.

But my thing with Kirk is his main concern is the crew of his ship, and while true, he does not always consult them before making decisions, but from what I've seen thus far is he makes decisions based on what he thinks is best for his ship and crew. I don't think I recall Picard making many of these kinds of choices, maybe in a few circumstances. I think the problem with TNG was they tried to be "too" Utopian, which is a nice concept, but it's probably going to be highly unlikely that something like that will occur. Besides Kirk & crew were out in space even before real-life humans were... who can top that

 

[KeepOnTrekking]

For me, comparing Kirk and Picard is like comparing apples and oranges. I like both characters but...I think Kirk and Riker make better starship captains because they have a tendency to make their own solutions rather than solicit opinions or wait for orders from Starfleet. I think Picard would have been better suited as an Admiral. Someone who could play the political game with the rest of Admiralty staff but knew enough of what it takes as a starship captain to slip the leash and take his own initiative when circumstances called for it (e.g. disobey orders in First Contact and help run the fleet against the Borg rather than catalogue anomalies in the neutral zone).

 

[JustKate]

But my thing with Kirk is his main concern is the crew of his ship, and while true, he does not always consult them before making decisions, but from what I've seen thus far is he makes decisions based on what he thinks is best for his ship and crew. I don't think I recall Picard making many of these kinds of choices, maybe in a few circumstances. I think the problem with TNG was they tried to be "too" Utopian, which is a nice concept, but it's probably going to be highly unlikely that something like that will occur. Besides Kirk & crew were out in space even before real-life humans were... who can top that

Unlikely what would occur? That a captain would ask his officers for their opinion? There I must disagree. They do now, in the 21st century (or so I understand) - the good ones, anyway. I think that's why ships are commanded by a captain rather than a Grand High Poobah. The captain is supposed to ask his officers for advice, when he has time. He doesn't have to take it, and he has the final say, but he's supposed to ask. If they aren't competent to advise him, he's supposed replace them with people who are, but they are there to provide advice and expertise.

And of course Kirk makes decisions based on what he thinks best for his ship - never thought anything else. I just think he often makes his decisions without enough thought, and he gets the ship and crew in trouble because of it. He gets them out again, I realize, but he's really just too much of a cowboy for me. Evidently he's not for you, and no doubt other people, but that's just not the kind of captain I would like to serve under. Different people respond differently to different command structures.

He'd make a great fighter pilot, though, Kirk would.

 

[Lilith785]

I do believe that less crew members dies under Picard's command... shows who the better leader was.

 

[QuasarVM]

Kirok IS the best captain...no doubt!

 

[trevanian]

I do believe that less crew members dies under Picard's command... shows who the better leader was.

Uhhh ... STARGAZER, anyone? Kah-blooey!

Also, leaving a fairly intact starship around for anyone to pick up and reverse engineer sounds like about as wrongheaded a call as any captain ever made (I know you can chalk it up to bad early TNG writing, but even so!)