Kirk drift—misremembering a character…

[CorporalCaptain]

Any fix requires rewriting "Turnabout Intruder". Not only does Lester make the claim, but Kirk agrees with her. Reinterpreting what Kirk says, for example to appease her instead of bluntly agreeing with her, is also necessary. Not to mention, the final line of the episode is also diluted, and therefore also rewritten, not that it deserves to stand.

In short and in other words, there's no reason to hold dear anything about this awful episode.

 

[Henoch]

No female was ever shown above the rank of commander in TOS, until TVH. Given the bad braid system in the first pilot, it's unclear if Number One even had that rank.

She was a Lieutenant:

ONE: She's replacing your former yeoman, sir.
PIKE: She does a good job, all right. It's just that I can't get used to having a woman on the bridge. No offence, Lieutenant. You're different, of course.​

 

[Tallguy]

Ha! First thing that shows up in my news feed this morning: "Star Trek’s Paul Wesley On Whether Kirk’s Womanizing Tendencies Will Surface In Season 2 With La’an And Uhura"

 

[CorporalCaptain]

She was a Lieutenant:

ONE: She's replacing your former yeoman, sir.
PIKE: She does a good job, all right. It's just that I can't get used to having a woman on the bridge. No offence, Lieutenant. You're different, of course.​

Right. I keep forgetting about that line; it never made it into "The Menagerie."

 

[Tallguy]

Right. I keep forgetting about that line; it never made it into "The Menagerie."

Neither did "Don't I?" after "Well I have to wear something!"

 

[Henoch]

If the women hit on Kirk, then, is he the womanizer or are they man-izers? Oh, the curse of being good looking.

 

[Tallguy]

Gotta admit that in the SNW trailer that La'an's reaction to Kirk makes me laugh every time.

 

[J.T.B.]

The only time we saw that happen was in "The Cage"/"The Menagerie", when Number One took over after Pike got captured. She wasn't posted as captain.

As I said, she was in command of the ship. The idea that an officer could succeed to command but could not be assigned to command just doesn't make sense.

Any fix requires rewriting "Turnabout Intruder". Not only does Lester make the claim, but Kirk agrees with her. Reinterpreting what Kirk says, for example to appease her instead of bluntly agreeing with her, is also necessary.

That bit of dialogue has been given a lot of weight, but it also doesn't make complete sense. If the "world of starship captains" admitting women does refer to women becoming starship commanders, how would Kirk and Lester roam the stars together?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Not to mention, the final line of the episode is also diluted, and therefore also rewritten, not that it deserves to stand.

Her life could have been as rich as any woman's, if only. If only.

If only she hadn't become fixated on becoming a captain, believing she wasn't one because she was a woman, viewing her ultimately toxic relationship with Kirk in light of that, and hating who and what she was, she could have found fulfillment, peace, and joy.

JANICE: I hoped I wouldn't see you again.
KIRK: I don't blame you.
JANICE: The year we were together at Starfleet is the only time in my life I was alive.
KIRK: I never stopped you from going on with your space work.
JANICE: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.
KIRK: No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it.
JANICE: I loved you. We could've roamed among the stars.
KIRK: We'd have killed each other.
JANICE: It might have been better.

Wow, a whole year?

That bit of dialogue has been given a lot of weight, but it also doesn't make complete sense. If the "world of starship captains" admitting women does refer to women becoming starship commanders, how would Kirk and Lester roam the stars together?

As part of a fleet? Kirk as Admiral? Or not together together, but out travelling at the same time instead of her doing work on a planet?

 

[blssdwlf]

She was a Lieutenant:

ONE: She's replacing your former yeoman, sir.
PIKE: She does a good job, all right. It's just that I can't get used to having a woman on the bridge. No offense, Lieutenant. You're different, of course.​

I wonder if Pike is or is not used to her as well

 

[mb22]

I wonder if Pike is or is not used to her as well

The casting director obviously didn't read the script carefully about female bridge crew.

Incidentally, I recently found out from Memory Alpha that this uncredited crewmember is Carol Daniels (Dement), who played Zora (under some hideous makeup) in "The Savage Curtain". She is apparently still alive (age 87) and one of the few surviving members of the "Cage" cast.

 

[fireproof78]

I wonder if Pike is or is not used to her as well

Pike isn't himself. Trauma will do that.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Whatever situation you're used to, having a sudden change is jarring in light of traumatic loss. It just happens to be a woman on the bridge, but it could just as easily have been "a Vulcan on the bridge", or "a purple haired person on the bridge".

What he's really saying is, "I can't get used to someone other than the person I'm used to/keep expecting to find when I look".

 

[David cgc]

And its ridiculous to pretend like there's some kind of magical dividing line between the captain and the first officer.

Any society in which a woman can be a first officer is a society in which she can be a captain. Even if there didn't happen to be any specific female captain for a few years on account of there only being a handful of posts available, it would still be non-sensical for someone in that society to claim that women can't be captains.

To be fair, "The Cage" does open with the Enterprise literally having a glass ceiling.

All kidding aside, it's simple enough to gloss over "Turnabout" (it helps that, as noted, it doesn't really make sense even taken at face value), and my point of view is that "The Cage" is basically a giant deleted scene and, while interesting, they only parts that really "count" (in as much as anything counts after 55 years and almost a thousand episodes by countless writers and creative teams) are the parts from "The Menagerie."

 

[Warped9]

Given Star Trek’s message of inclusiveness it’s nonsensical to insist on accepting “Turnabout Intruder” as an ironclad sexist message. It’s simpler and less problematical to accept Janice Lester’s viewpoint as bitter self-delusion. She sees Starfleet and Kirk’s rejection of her as a rejection of all women regardless of evidence to the contrary.

 

[Tallguy]

Kirk drift? What about thread drift?

The Cage: Pure speculation, but what's funny is that I think the "can't get used to women on the bridge" was there to underline the PROGRESS that Star Trek would show. Maybe not realizing that the world would age past it in about 15 minutes.

Turnabout: It's a bad episode which makes it fairly easy to dismiss. Nobody is mining The Alternative Factor for series defining continuity either.

But it seems clear that it was the writer's intent to say exactly what it said. There are lots of reasons to ignore this. I think chasing after "How do we make this make sense?" is a fruitless exercise, even for the likes of us.

 

[fireproof78]

Nobody is mining The Alternative Factor for series defining continuity either.

Um, yes, yes I am. And I enjoy t it too.

There are lots of reasons to ignore this. I think chasing after "How do we make this make sense?"

Maybe. But that's the question I like to ask with Trek and reframing it, or retconning it or head canoning it or whatever, is part of the appeal. Flat out dismissal is the easy road. Real life, and Trek, didn't teach me to take the easy road.

 

[J.T.B.]

As part of a fleet? Kirk as Admiral?

So they both rise to captain in roughly the same amount of time, are assigned to starships around the same time, and are assigned to starships operating together at the same time. I like those odds!

Or not together together, but out travelling at the same time instead of her doing work on a planet?

How do they kill each other if they are not together?

 

[Vger23]

I think the thing I want to make clear here is that I absolutely believe there is inaccuracy / drift in the way Kirk is "remembered" in pop culture.

That said, I do not think that the character of Kirk in the 3 Kelvinverse movies is "inaccurate." I think those movies engage in an exploration of the Kirk character whose life was irreparably changed at birth when his father sacrificed himself.

 

[1001001]

I think the thing I want to make clear here is that I absolutely believe there is inaccuracy / drift in the way Kirk is "remembered" in pop culture.

That said, I do not think that the character of Kirk in the 3 Kelvinverse movies is "inaccurate." I think those movies engage in an exploration of the Kirk character whose life was irreparably changed at birth when his father sacrificed himself.

Exactly.