Pike saying becoming an Orion trader is probably my biggest gripe with the story. I also do not like that Pike is object of everyone's fantasies in the story. It is unsavory at best, and misogynistic at worst.
Kirk drift—misremembering a character…
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There is no misogyny in Star Trek
https://www.dictionary.com/e/misogyny-vs-sexism/
Sexism? Agreed, it's there, but no more – and generally less – than what was normal for TV of the day.
And no definition of the term “Toxic Masculinity” fits classic Star Trek in any way.
There is also no racism or homophobia either.
The whole point of Star Trek, the entire reason it appeals to such a broad scope, is in how everyone is accepted (although some groups were never mentioned at all in the original series).
Oy vey, this thread has veered so far off topic that we might as well just change the title.
https://www.dictionary.com/e/misogyny-vs-sexism/
Sexism? Agreed, it's there, but no more – and generally less – than what was normal for TV of the day.
And no definition of the term “Toxic Masculinity” fits classic Star Trek in any way.
There is also no racism or homophobia either.
The whole point of Star Trek, the entire reason it appeals to such a broad scope, is in how everyone is accepted (although some groups were never mentioned at all in the original series).
Oy vey, this thread has veered so far off topic that we might as well just change the title.
"Slave women" strike me as woman hating but that's perhaps my own personal take.
Thank you for the word education. Much appreciated!
I strongly suspect the decision to omit that or any other line from the original pilot in incorporating it into the framing of "The Menagerie" had to do primarily with timing: making everything fit into the allotted time-slot.
What was necessary to make the story work stayed in; what was not needed could be left out. That line was one of many parts of "The Cage" deemed non-essential to the plot.
I think what @scotpens meant is that her character is never identified by name in dialogue. She's named in the script, but not on the screen.
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Slavery in any form is unsavoury, but it is a fact of reality. Slavery has been visited upon every race throughout history. And, regrettably, slavery still exists today.
It is also a fact of reality that not all cultures share our values. Although we find slavery unacceptable and disgusting today throughout much of human history many societies had no real issue with it. It’s even matter-of-factly in the Bible. And, as I said above, it’s still with us today even if we don’t hear much of it.
Slavery is put into “The Cage” as a form of titillation through a passing reference. And yet when it’s put right in Pike’s face—right there for him for the taking—he doesn’t take the bait. Baser human instincts might be tempted by the idea, but when faced with it directly Pike takes the evolved choice.
Pike elects to be a real man and not a pig.
As opposed to a fake man?
Yes. I fight against it, thanks.
And it's disgusting. It doesn't make it less sexist. We see men ogling over a female and her dancing sexily, knowing that she is a traded commodity, not a person.
The passing reference was when the notion was raised between Pike and Boyce. Seeing Vina dance as an Orion slave girl was putting the idea in Pike’s face.
If you think that was so disgusting as a means of serving the story then you have tender sensibilities. But it certainly reinforced the intent Star Trek was being written for an adult audience. That younger viewers could be, and were, exposed to it underlines adults reasoned those younger viewers would also be able to figure it out. Unlike today where everything has a warning just in case you see something that could traumatize you, like an idea.
If you think that was so disgusting as a means of serving the story then you have tender sensibilities. But it certainly reinforced the intent Star Trek was being written for an adult audience. That younger viewers could be, and were, exposed to it underlines adults reasoned those younger viewers would also be able to figure it out. Unlike today where everything has a warning just in case you see something that could traumatize you, like an idea.
Yes, yes I do. Have for years, and mocked for it. There's a reason Spock was my idol growing up.
Sorry that I think slavery is bad or that it offends me.
There was dialog regarding the Orion slave girl in "The Menagerie" that is textbook misogynism.
The dialog from "The Menagerie" [http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/16b.htm]: "They're like animals, vicious, seductive."
And, quoting right from the link you provided, with the relevant part boldfaced:
Misogyny is a blatant disregard for women; while someone who is sexist may still be opposed to the fact that women make 78 cents to the dollar, a misogynist will believe that women don’t deserve equal pay because they are inherently lesser than men.
Saying that a woman is like an animal is saying that she is inherently lesser than a man. QED.
Boom. Negator. There was misogyny in TOS.
Countdown to "but they weren't talking about human women" in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1... .
Alright, I’ll bite. I always understood that to be a reference to Orion women, and not all women in every civilization in the universe. Wouldn’t it make sense that there are going to be a wide range of opinions when it comes to any subject?? When Spock fought Kirk over T’Pring, T’Pau asked her if she was prepared to become the property of the victor. That’s pretty black and white.
Meanwhile, maybe we could discuss Kirk.
That's arguably another example.
I'll gladly follow moderator and admin directions on what's acceptable to discuss in this thread.
You just don't get it. "The Cage" was dramatizing the enslavement inflicted on a woman of color. It was gritty and uncompromising:
https://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x00hd/thecagehd1629.jpg
The show also laid bare the stereotyping: the animal bit, and the idea that no man can resist them ("Once you've gone green, everything else is routine.") Pike was outraged and didn't want to lower himself to that level.
Technically TOS Kirk could be argued as a case of Pike drift since the initial intent was not to reinvent the character from “The Cage,” but largely just rename him. In the early episodes Kirk is presented much like what was originally intended for Pike. But eventually Shatner’s take on the character gave us something different than what we saw from Pike in “The Cage.”
Note, too, that Pike in “The Cage” is something of a defeated character. He is tired and fed up. Thats not a very positive or heroic introduction. But Kirk in “Where No Man Has Gone Before” is on his game right off. He makes a more positive introduction right off.
The rest is history.
Uh-huh. You mean the same Pike who mused to his doctor/bartender that he was thinking about trading in green animal slave women? Okay.
The point in contention was literally whether there was misogyny in Star Trek, not whether it was being either critiqued or endorsed in any way. To critique a thing or to endorse it, it has to be present. In this case, there were characters engaging in it, and the main character was explicitly depicted as being at least conflicted regarding it. Kirk even goes on to say that Pike was weakening, succumbing to the temptations he was being presented with ("And as she appeared to him in many forms, each more exciting than the last, Pike was beginning to weaken."). In other words, Pike didn't completely reject the scenario, he was being tempted by it, just as he had confessed to his doctor/bartender near the beginning of the flashback [http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/16.htm]:
PIKE: I said that's one place I might go. I might go into business on Regulus or on the Orion colony.
BOYCE: You, an Orion trader, dealing in green animal women, slaves?
BOYCE: You, an Orion trader, dealing in green animal women, slaves?
I wasn’t meaning to point out an example of misogyny (hatred of women - and I don’t think Vulcans hate women), but of differences between cultures. Apologies.
Back to Kirk…
Yes, Kirk is definitely happy where he is. Pike has seen a lot of death and destruction by this point, but I always had the impression that he was always a lot more serious than Kirk. Not that Kirk wasn’t professional, but definitely more optimistic. He did have his doubting moments, though (e.g., Balance of Terror).
Why not smarts and talent? She's presented as highly intelligent. That was a reason the Talosian gave for Pike mating with her.
Vina is an example of a misogynistic trope of the seductress, the Jezebel come to tempt the male hero away from the righteous path.
The idea that men and women are equal is not a "worldview of notions with no connection to reality."
Not myself, but yes. The character referred to only as "Number One" in "The Cage" was first given the name "Una" in the 60th anniversary novel trilogy Star Trek: Legacies (2016); the authors named her Una for exactly that reason (and also as a tip of the hat to fellow Star Trek novelist Una McCormack). The producers of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds chose to use the name Una for the same character after its use in Legacies was brought to their attention.
"The Cage" asks us to feel titillated by the idea of sexual slavery, codes the alien Orions as Orientalist visions of Arabic belly dancers, contains dialogue that literally dehumanizes Orion women, contains dialogue casually establishing that "good" girls don't enjoy sex ("they actually enjoy being taken advantage of!"), features Pike casually remarking that having women on the bridge other than Una makes him uncomfortable, asks us to believe that literally every single woman in the episode is secretly pining for Pike, and then concludes by asserting that Vina is too ugly as a result of her injuries to return to human society. The entire episode, from start to finish, is a misogynistic male power fantasy.
Per se? Of course not. In this narrative context? It sure is.
The naive waif eager to please her older male boss can also be a misogynistic trope depending on how it's executed. Colt is a textbook example of a misogynistic version of that.
There literally are no other women under Pike's command -- not on the bridge at least.
"The Cage" is generally considered canonical. Of course, it is also full of elements that are out of continuity with later canonical installments; "I can't get used to having a woman on the bridge," like the reference to "breaking the time barrier," is best ignored and treated as out of continuity with everything else.
Y E P.
False. Star Trek had had a recurring misogynistic streak from its inception up until the premiere of DIS in 2017. I can't tell you how many time I would try to introduce the franchise to female friends, only for them to roll their eyes at me and tell me they had no interest in watching a show that pretends at intelligence while treating women like sex objects.
Only if you define "racism" or "homophobia" to mean something other than systems of power that favor one race over others or that favors cisgender straight people over queer people. That is to say, only if you define "racism" and "homophobia" as something other than what they actually mean.
This sophistry is completely irrelevant to the question of how we evaluate a narrative that depicts slavery.
And the narrative asks us, the audience, to feel titillated at the idea of a woman's sexual enslavement along with Pike. It presents us with the Jezebel trope, asks us to take pleasure in the Jezebel figure being sexually objectified, and then codes that Jezebel character as a threat to Pike's moral purity.
This is all incredibly misogynistic writing.
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