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Kirk as hero archetype (cf. NuKirk)

plynch

plynch

Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
The nice discussion about other captains makes me think about Kirk. Other people have written how he inspired them as someone to emulate. Strong, decent, spares life when possible, digs diversity.

I personally like the relatively little backstory. He's "the hero," with a bit of self-doubt thrown in early in S1. For him to work on our psyches, he just needs to be a hero, which he is.

And how does NuKirk compare? I DON't want to start flame wars, but I just didn't care for him as a person. Maybe because I'm older and he seems punky? He has the obligate angsty backstory of a 21st century hero. I personally am tired of angsty-ness, but I assume it's so we can see him grow, which will be nice (I assume more growth to come in movie xii).

Anyone care to comment?
 
Well, the classic hero archetype is old and cliche too. The good guy archetype, but the hideously clever hungry arrogant bad boy is no better, but running with wolves is what the women like so..
 
The problem with Li'l Kirk is that we don't see him grow. He's just as much an arrogant punk at the end as he is at the beginning, only Starfleet has now rewarded him for being an arrogant punk by giving him command of the Enterprise.
 
I think there is some growth there. There is that scene with Spock-Prime where Kirk asks about his father. Definite vulnerability thing going there.

Also, there is that exchange with Uhura after he "emotionally compromises" Spock and takes command. She says something about hoping he knows what he is doing, and he ruefully replies "So do I...". Arguably the humblest thing he says in the movie.
 
Hopefully they focus on growth for Kirk in the next film as they really have nothing else left. They pretty much did Spock's entire thirty year character arc in the first film.
 
Captain Robert April said:
He's just as much an arrogant punk at the end as he is at the beginning, only Starfleet has now rewarded him for being an arrogant punk...
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That sounds like the personal fantasy of every young, self-described, would-be "arrogant punk" out there! Was that the audience they were after? :D
 
I think nuKirk is a distilled or ultimized version of the original, with a bit of a focus on the more "roguish" aspects of the character that really got its start not so much in TOS but rather in TWOK, IMO.
 
1. Yes, I would say oldKirk's chracter def. changed in the movies, esp. compared to S1, when he was a BIT less friendly with crew (calling them "mister," admonishing a transporter operator in "Dagger") and occasionally self-doubting.

2. Fo Sho the younger demographic is where TrekXI was aiming, right? Loudness, hyperkinetic-ness, young actors, angsty-ness. I write not to knock it, but to acknowledge it.

3. What do you all think about oldKirk's good-guy hero archetype being a bit boring and cliche for postmodern times? Interesting thought.
 
Captain Robert April said:
Lemme put it this way: Could you. Ever see the hippies in "The Way To Eden" calling NuKirk "Herbert"?
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10 years later in his career, who knows? Rebellious teens often turn into parents who are tough on their teens.

That's a good comparison, though. To be a good hero that resonates, must one be stalwart (Dorothy, Luke, Frodo); or can s/he be punky/angsty?

Maybe Spock is the main character of Trek xi and I'm focusing on the wrong guy as hero! Or maybe with two parallel stories, the film just doesn't fit the classic mode.
 
PLYNCH - Pardon my ignorance, but what or who is a 'nuKirk'?

Also, your point about there being little back-story on how do you say it now,...'Classic Kirk'(?),... is so very correct, as we know his character to be very real and fully developed, but rather than being 'told' things about the character, we know them to be true by witnessing his character in action, which is so much stronger.

Great point.
 
Captain Tracy said:
PLYNCH - Pardon my ignorance, but what or who is a 'nuKirk'?
Click to expand...

Kirk as played by Chris Pine in the 2009 movie.

--

Honestly, though, Is "The Way to Eden" really going to be our barometer for Kirk as a character? That seems rather silly to me.
 
Being born in battle certainly elevates nuKirk beyond the original as an archetypical character - pretty strong mythological underpinnings, there.

oldKirk is interesting enough, I guess. It's mainly Shatner's idiosyncracies that make the character memorable; otherwise he rarely rises above the level of any other gunslinging hero in a 1960s TV western. He's not as clearly defined as Spock, who's really the most significant character in TOS and possibly in all of Trek.

I found Pine's Kirk a great deal more watchable than Shatner's version has been since around the time of, oh, "The Apple." Apparently so did a great many more people than have ever bothered with Star Trek before. ;)
 
Captain Robert April said:
It's useful to demonstrate that Kirk was NOT the rule breaking renegade that JJ seems to think he is.
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As pointed out, that started with TWOK and was driven home with TSFS. Though, in TOS Kirk (and others in his crew) were more than happy to break rules, when one of their friends were in trouble. Amok Time and The Menagerie are examples of this.
 
Kirk enjoyed twisting supposed rules like the Prime Directive to suit his personal agenda, not to mention violating direct orders in episodes like "Amok Time." The characterization of Kirk as a guy who'll do whatever it takes to win is firmly fixed in the public imagination now - thanks, as noted, to TWOK - and there ain't no going back. Abrams and company were right to play with that in the 2009 movie.

Since James T. Kirk was never a real human being and therefore there is no real history to respect, interpret or argue over the question of his real nature is moot. Once upon a time, Superman was named "Kal-L" and could only leap part of a mile. So what?
 
Old Kirk could get pretty angsty, especially Season One Old Kirk. I'm sure Baris, Fox and Ferris thought Old Kirk was a punk. ;)
 
NuKirk was stalwart.
marked by outstanding strength and vigor of body, mind, or spirit
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He did get through the Academy in three years, stick to his guns about his theory of the Vulcan Crisis and kick Romulan ass.
 
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