Kira Or Seven: Most Fully Realized Character...

[Farscape One]

I was inspired by another thread I read tonight by Whizkid. Thank you for the inspiration!

The franchise has had many female characters... some great ones, some good ones, some barely used ones. But there's a couple that outshine all the others.

Kira Nerys and Seven of Nine... I don't think it's an exaggeration to say these are two of the most fully realized female characters in STAR TREK. Both were portrayed brilliantly by superb actresses, Nana Visitor and Jeri Ryan, respectively.

I wondered which one is the most well rounded and realized, and I find it very difficult to choose. Both had terrible upbringings. Both have guilt follow them like a permanent shadow. Both speak their mind and are never afraid to do so. But more importantly, both were characters first, and being a woman was simply a matter of they happen to be that gender. Despite the clear attempt to make them eye candy for the men, it was never about that with them.

It's tough to pick... Kira had 7 years to develop, while Seven had only 4 years. (If we count PICARD, add half a season... and really, only 4 episodes.)

Personally, I think the prize goes to Kira, and for a simple reason. Seven was easy to shine because the writers gravitated a lot toward her at the expense of several of the rest of the cast... it's easier to stand out when the rest of the group is not given much attention. (I do not fault the actors... you can only go so far with what you are given.) With Kira, SO MANY of the characters on DS9 were very well done, rounded, and alive that it's hard to shine brightly when you are surrounded by diamonds. Kira definitely shined brightly.

What do you all think? Votes are open. And please, add others if you think they can match either choice.

 

[Whizkid]

 

[Whizkid]

@Farscape One:

You know how I finally decided? Like you, Kira vs Seven is a difficult choice.

So I went back to that episode where Kira leaves her father, in order to take revenge, kill the Cardassian occupiers, only to come back victorious and find her father dead.

That wail of Major Kira Nerys, that is Star Trek.

 

[Sci]

I was inspired by another thread I read tonight by Whizkid. Thank you for the inspiration!

The franchise has had many female characters... some great ones, some good ones, some barely used ones. But there's a couple that outshine all the others.

Kira Nerys and Seven of Nine... I don't think it's an exaggeration to say these are two of the most fully realized female characters in STAR TREK.

Well, pre-Michael Burnham, anyway.

Personally, I think the prize goes to Kira, and for a simple reason. Seven was easy to shine because the writers gravitated a lot toward her at the expense of several of the rest of the cast... it's easier to stand out when the rest of the group is not given much attention. (I do not fault the actors... you can only go so far with what you are given.) With Kira, SO MANY of the characters on DS9 were very well done, rounded, and alive that it's hard to shine brightly when you are surrounded by diamonds. Kira definitely shined brightly.

100%. We also just generally got a sense of who Kira was as a person outside of work -- her vulnerabilities, her playfulness, her faith, her doubts. With Seven, she still had not figured out who she was outside of her work when VOY ended. She's a more fully-realized character now on PIC, I think.

 

[at Quark's]

I never particularly cared for Seven. Most of the material the writers gave her felt a bit tired and rehashed to me. Someone who has to Learn what it Means to be an Individual ... yet again. Also, the attention showered on her felt a bit forced, as she was clearly intended to become one of the main stars of the show, at the cost of others. At the end of the show, she had barely begun to establish a fully grown personality. (Not including PIC in this, as I haven't seen enough of it yet).

Compared to that, many of the dilemmas Kira was faced with, we hadn't really seen in that form before - looking up to her commanding officer who was also a religious icon in her religion would be an example. She was a fully realised person from the very start of the show, one that we only gradually got to know better. Finally, her development felt entirely natural and wasn't eating away attention from the others.

In the end, there really is no comparison for me. Kira wins and it's not even close.

I'll agree that this is a highly subjective and assessment, though, and biased by my personal tastes.

Also, this has nothing to do with my evaluation of Ryan in her role as Seven. I think she did an awesome job with the material she was given. I just think most of the material she was given wasn't of stellar quality in the first place.

 

[Whizkid]

Umm...Jeri Ryan, as Seven, was obviously a character meant to shore up Voyager's dwindling TRPs. What is important, as you note, is that the Trekkies weren't fooled.

'I'll agree that this is a highly subjective and assessment, though, and biased by my personal tastes."

All assessments are, I don't see why yours should be an exception.

 

[Sci]

Yeah, there's a point where "teaching the coded-as-neurodivergent person what it means to be a normal person" thing gets old.

 

[Tosk]

It's tough to pick... Kira had 7 years to develop, while Seven had only 4 years.

Yeah but in those four years I bet Seven got almost as many dedicated episodes as Kira did in seven years.

 

[Whizkid]

Plus, Jeri Ryan was brought in for a specific purpose.

 

[at Quark's]

Umm...Jeri Ryan, as Seven, was obviously a character meant to shore up Voyager's dwindling TRPs. What is important, as you note, is that the Trekkies weren't fooled.

'I'll agree that this is a highly subjective and assessment, though, and biased by my personal tastes."

All assessments are, I don't see why yours should be an exception.

Well, what I meant was that I didn't even try to answer in an objective manner. I mean, I could also have attempted to look at the question as stated, and then try to evaluate how 'realised' (whatever that would mean exactly) and 'well rounded' they were, as characters and try to leave my personal tastes out of it. I would probably have failed in that, my preferences still seeping in, but I didn't try in the first place.

Even so, I'd probably still have said that 7 was in the process of being established as a personality and still had many 'gaps' (of necessity, since she never got the opportunity to developing those aspects of her personality before, but still), and therefore Kira would win out as the more well-rounded character almost by definition.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

"No character on any of thr other shows evolved more than the least evolved character on Deep Space Nine." --Ben Robinson, editor of Star Trek Magazine

In almost all of these discussions, it will be almost objectively true that Kira will be more developed, more evolved than other female characters in the franchise. The MO of DS9 was exploring how characters changes in response to their experiences and their choices; some of the other series consciously rejected this approach. This doesn't mean that character development did not happen, but it was often hampered by the attitudes of producers and, sometimes, writers themselves. Rowan Coleman recently pointed out that B'Elana Torres episodes always seemed to tread over the same issues of her Klingon heritage without making significant progress. Seven of Nine was better served. The first year did have her spining her tires somewhat as the writers had her coming back to the same problems episode after episode, but she made significant progress thereafter, mostly driven by the acting. The nineteen year gap between series makes the new Seven of Nine more reset than development. Michael Burnham certainly has many obstacles, and ought to evolve more, but the writers seem generally impatient, not willing to allow her redemption and ascent to happen naturally. Second season Michael was amazing. Third season started by having her confront problems, but obtaining captaincy was almost random. Sonequa Martin Greene might be the best actor the franchise has ever had as a regular, so at least I feel engaged.

What sets Kira apart is the way that her personality evolves in a meaningful, stepwise manner over the course of many years. She starts with an extreme hatred and suspicion of Cardassians, which is thoroughly understandable given the background of the series, but through her confrontations with Cardassians, learns to see their diversity, becoming capable of working with them and influencing them in positive ways. It is the emergence of complex interpersonal skills that no other character, male or female, achieved.

 

[Whizkid]

I think, Kira and 7, (Kira because she left her father on his deathbed, going to avenge against the Cardassians) and 7(9) because she was practically immune to her history as Annika Hansen, which Janeway tried to remind her of again and again.

Kira looses Odo, as 7 looses Chakotay. The difference is that Kira took Odo home. She asked for it. Desperately, as her heart must be breaking.

Thus, Kira wins.

 

[Whizkid]

"No character on any of thr other shows evolved more than the least evolved character on Deep Space Nine." --Ben Robinson, editor of Star Trek Magazine

In almost all of these discussions, it will be almost objectively true that Kira will be more developed, more evolved than other female characters in the franchise. The MO of DS9 was exploring how characters changes in response to their experiences and their choices; some of the other series consciously rejected this approach. This doesn't mean that character development did not happen, but it was often hampered by the attitudes of producers and, sometimes, writers themselves. Rowan Coleman recently pointed out that B'Elana Torres episodes always seemed to tread over the same issues of her Klingon heritage without making significant progress. Seven of Nine was better served. The first year did have her spining her tires somewhat as the writers had her coming back to the same problems episode after episode, but she made significant progress thereafter, mostly driven by the acting. The nineteen year gap between series makes the new Seven of Nine more reset than development. Michael Burnham certainly has many obstacles, and ought to evolve more, but the writers seem generally impatient, not willing to allow her redemption and ascent to happen naturally. Second season Michael was amazing. Third season started by having her confront problems, but obtaining captaincy was almost random. Sonequa Martin Greene might be the best actor the franchise has ever had as a regular, so at least I feel engaged.

What sets Kira apart is the way that her personality evolves in a meaningful, stepwise manner over the course of many years. She starts with an extreme hatred and suspicion of Cardassians, which is thoroughly understandable given the background of the series, but through her confrontations with Cardassians, learns to see their diversity, becoming capable of working with them and influencing them in positive ways. It is the emergence of complex interpersonal skills that no other character, male or female, achieved.

This is very interesting!

So even the editors agree about Kira?

Which Michael do they mean? Eddington? (Who was great).

 

[Whizkid]

I think, Kira and 7, (Kira because she left her father on his deathbed, going to avenge against the Cardassians) and 7(9) because she was practically immune to her history as Annika Hansen, which Janeway tried to remind her of again and again.

Kira looses Odo, as 7 looses Chakotay. The difference is that Kira took Odo home. She asked for it. Desperately, as her heart must be breaking.

Thus, Kira wins.

Loses*

 

[at Quark's]

Rowan Coleman recently pointed out that B'Elana Torres episodes always seemed to tread over the same issues of her Klingon heritage without making significant progress.

Even so, I think S7 Torres is significantly different from S1 Torres. S1 Torris was an angry young girl who didn't really trust anybody, believed Janeway wanted to set her up for failure even after being appointed head engineer, and kept everybody at arm's length except Chakotay and perhaps Seska (can't remember). S7 Torres is a happily married woman that perhaps still has some anger and Klingon inheritance issues to deal with, but all in all seems a well integrated member of the crew.

 

[1001001]

I think, Kira and 7, (Kira because she left her father on his deathbed, going to avenge against the Cardassians) and 7(9) because she was practically immune to her history as Annika Hansen, which Janeway tried to remind her of again and again.

Kira looses Odo, as 7 looses Chakotay. The difference is that Kira took Odo home. She asked for it. Desperately, as her heart must be breaking.

Thus, Kira wins.

This is very interesting!

So even the editors agree about Kira?

Which Michael do they mean? Eddington? (Who was great).

Loses*

You've been told by two different moderators to stop doing this. It can't be because you didn't know, so the only option left is you're doing it on purpose.

This is your last friendly warning: consolidate your thoughts and responses into one post. Use the multi-quote feature if you need to.

Carry on.

 

[Kilana2]

While I love the interactions of Seven with the Doctor and other crew members and also her development, especially in the novelverse, I prefer Kira. I wasn't a big Kira fan from the beginning, but all that was told about her on and offscreen convinced me about Kira being one of my favorite Trek characters. Followed by Spock and Data.

 

[Oddish]

Plus, Jeri Ryan was brought in for a specific purpose.

If it was the purpose I think it was, she transcended it. Some of her best work came in "Picard", when she was older and more normally dressed.

Even so, I think S7 Torres is significantly different from S1 Torres.

Yes. I wish that Torres could have followed the journey I suggested, where she gets brigged and relieved of duty, then has to play second fiddle in engineering for awhile. She could easily have been on this list alongside Seven: the potential was there, and as an actress, Roxann Dawson was adequate to the task.

This is a tough call... Kira was probably the stronger character, but DS9 was a vastly superior growth medium for character growth, compared to the reset-happy Voyager. I look forward to seeing what Seven can do in a show like Picard.

 

[1001001]

Seven of Nine was way better than Kira.

 

[BillJ]

Seven of Nine. I think Jeri Ryan was simply the better actor of the two, by a long shot. Though I also prefer Jadzia Dax to Kira.

Visitor plays Kira as the whiniest freedom fighter in the galaxy.

Well, pre-Michael Burnham, anyway.