Kira Meru and the Comfort Women

[Kilana2]

It's a pretty big gray area. It's hard to pass judgment on them completely but also hard to excuse them.

It's true Meru could have flat out refused, and then she would have been sent out to work in the mines and her family would not have been fed. How do you separate out her own personal windfall from the situation, living in comfort while the rest of her people suffered, from the fact she was also helping her family? You could call her a collaborator because her complicity gave comfort and legitimacy to the invaders, but not quite as much a collaborator as that Bajoran guy who was rounding up attractive Bajoran women for the Cardassians.

Historically occupations end all the time. Occupying a foreign country is expensive. The moment you can't afford it you move on.

It is likely that Tora Naprem was also a not-so-quite-volunteer lover of Dukat. But to gain his ends, he could be very convincing and charming towards the Bajoran women. Problem was, once they fell into disgrace, he dropped them, looking for the next best attractive Bajoran female.

 

[Timo]

We don't really know what happened to Dukat's lovers in general, or even in specific.

Tora fell prey to the Breen because Dukat had sent her to live on Lissepia, outside the Cardassian society which would not accept her. But the very reason Dukat had had this affair was because he was outside the Cardassian society, on occupied Bajor; the idea well might have been for Dukat to arrange for himself to be assigned to Lissepia next.

The affair with Kira ended in an unknown fashion. Was she sent to die at Singha after all? Did a jealous competitor stab her? Did Dukat sell her to his third-in-command for a bottle of kanar? Is she still alive somewhere off Bajor, wondering why Dukat has failed to make his bi-monthly visit for a couple of years in a row now? We really have no idea, the novel Night of the Wolves notwithstanding. "Dropping" is pretty far from given.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kilana2]

We don't really know what happened to Dukat's lovers in general, or even in specific.

Tora fell prey to the Breen because Dukat had sent her to live on Lissepia, outside the Cardassian society which would not accept her. But the very reason Dukat had had this affair was because he was outside the Cardassian society, on occupied Bajor; the idea well might have been for Dukat to arrange for himself to be assigned to Lissepia next.

The affair with Kira ended in an unknown fashion. Was she sent to die at Singha after all? Did a jealous competitor stab her? Did Dukat sell her to his third-in-command for a bottle of kanar? Is she still alive somewhere off Bajor, wondering why Dukat has failed to make his bi-monthly visit for a couple of years in a row now? We really have no idea, the novel Night of the Wolves notwithstanding. "Dropping" is pretty far from given.

Timo Saloniemi

I based my assumptions on this novel. Despite of Dukat´s many wrongdoings, his feelings for both Tora Naprem and Kira Meru seem to be authentic. I can only imagine his wife Athra´s reaction when she kicked him finally out.

Five out of six wives of Henry VIII were loved by the king, at least for a while (the forced-upon marriage to Anna von Kleve not counting).

 

[UssGlenn]

A major factor here is that Cardassians supposedly held family ties in great respect, greater than any known human culture. We saw little of this "supposed" state of affairs, but we were explicitly told that Dukat's philandering was highly exceptional and condemnable.
Timo Saloniemi

Was it his affair that was condemnable or the fact that he was caught/admitted to it? Military mistresses are probably very common but nobody else would be crazy enough to bring their half Bajoran daughter back to Cardassisa, or even let them live.

 

[Kilana2]

A major factor here is that Cardassians supposedly held family ties in great respect, greater than any known human culture. We saw little of this "supposed" state of affairs, but we were explicitly told that Dukat's philandering was highly exceptional and condemnable.
Timo Saloniemi

Was it his affair that was condemnable or the fact that he was caught/admitted to it? Military mistresses are probably very common but nobody else would be crazy enough to bring their half Bajoran daughter back to Cardassisa, or even let them live.

Dukat´s wife kicked his a.... for it. And there is still this half Cardassian half Bajoran boy with Mika.....

 

[Draculasaurus]

Okay?

Where were the comfortmen?

Were there no female Cardassians working at Terrok Nor, or dare I suggest no male homosexual Cardassians?

"Sigh"

So the gay Cardassians had to pretend that they liked sex with the sex slaves otherwise they end up in a hard labour camp somewhere?

Ridiculous.

Only a couple more paragraphs and this could be a fan-fiction!

 

[Kilana2]

Okay?

Where were the comfortmen?

Were there no female Cardassians working at Terrok Nor, or dare I suggest no male homosexual Cardassians?

"Sigh"

So the gay Cardassians had to pretend that they liked sex with the sex slaves otherwise they end up in a hard labour camp somewhere?

Ridiculous.

Only a couple more paragraphs and this could be a fan-fiction!

Or a twisted and ill-written MU story.

 

[Shada Dukal]

I guess the discussion revolves around whether Meru and the comfort women can be considered collaborators or victims without a way out. I think that people consider their survival as well as the survival of their relatives upmost priority and are hardly likely to dwell upon how they achieve it. Bystanders are those who pass the judgments, but it is all too easy to give advice on someone else’s choices or lack of such.


People can change and adapt – at first they may feel as victims but later they harden, they learn to play their roles well, they find powerful patrons. Some of them, like Meru, might even develop feelings, get infatuated and push aside the thought of how it started. Others may never manage to pretend well enough, the customers will be dissatisfied with their unwillingness, and they will be replaced.



Success, power and sex opportunities, more manipulated or more genuine, always go hand in hand in all possible universes. Who wants to share a bed with a loser or an average Joe/Jane if they can have truly something?


However, contemporary sex and fashion industry does not give its workers more options. It seems to me that most RL street walkers would be happy to be comfort women because at least their families would be fed and they would work with a controlled group of customers.


Still, I firmly believe that Dukat could do something about the female Cardassian personnel and the male homosexual Cardassians – if the Bajorans were not to their liking, he could import …several Klingons or Idanians. The latter were really cute.



Fortunately, in Starfleet they have never had this problem. When it comes to hotties, Starfleet rules!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-WA90u0f0Y

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I guess the discussion revolves around whether Meru and the comfort women can be considered collaborators or victims without a way out. I think that people consider their survival as well as the survival of their relatives upmost priority and are hardly likely to dwell upon how they achieve it. Bystanders are those who pass the judgments, but it is all too easy to give advice on someone else’s choices or lack of such.

No, it is not a simple dichotomy. House slaves could be both victims of the system of slavery and barriers to liberation. Meru's choices (such as they were) may have aided the health of her family, but they perpetuated the system of forced labor that was at the root of her family's suffering. A tactical solution that entrenched long-term misery.

 

[Timo]

Or then being nice to the new overlords would make the future brighter for all the upcoming generations of Bajorans, there being no hope of liberation there.

As of the mid-24th century and mid-occupation, the Bajorans couldn't have known whether the Cardassian domination would ever end. It turned out that it only lasted for about as long as the Soviet domination of eastern Europe, but that might not be a bet worth making - resistance could well have been treason, and collaboration the only defensible approach, the only possible way to preserve at least a bit of the Bajoran culture.

I mean, it's not as if resistance helped the slightest bit against the Soviet Union. Quite to the contrary.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

As of the mid-24th century and mid-occupation, the Bajorans couldn't have known whether the Cardassian domination would ever end.

As of the early 21st century, there are already plenty of successful national liberation movements to offer both examples and inspiration. There are also plenty examples of the consequences of long-term oppression and the necessity of confronting that oppression rather than negotiating with it.

 

[Shada Dukal]

Well, I hope the Bajorans did not expect several skimpily dressed ladies pouring kanar to tip the scales in favor of their liberation or rather transition to the Federation zone of influence. However, I guess Leeta and her colleagues liked their new oppressors much better.

I don’t know whether you have met the RL counterparts of comfort women/men but I can assure you they can’t think at all, they just take it as it is. Survival is so banal, dirty and void of deep understanding and moral dilemmas.

As for the resistance against the Soviet Union, the real horror began after the Soviet Union had gone. The post-totalitarian chaos and the ill-targeted reforms in the name of “democracy and liberation” ruined more people than the Soviet Union’s dominance over the satellites.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I don’t know whether you have met the RL counterparts of comfort women/men but I can assure you they can’t think at all, they just take it as it is. Survival is so banal, dirty and void of deep understanding and moral dilemmas.

Which is why the condition of real-life comfort women does not apply to Kira Meru's situation.

 

[The Overlord]

Or then being nice to the new overlords would make the future brighter for all the upcoming generations of Bajorans, there being no hope of liberation there.

As of the mid-24th century and mid-occupation, the Bajorans couldn't have known whether the Cardassian domination would ever end. It turned out that it only lasted for about as long as the Soviet domination of eastern Europe, but that might not be a bet worth making - resistance could well have been treason, and collaboration the only defensible approach, the only possible way to preserve at least a bit of the Bajoran culture.

I mean, it's not as if resistance helped the slightest bit against the Soviet Union. Quite to the contrary.

Timo Saloniemi

Well not religious, the Cardassians focus on family would suggest a rather social conservative society, so homosexual Cardassians may have been treated as second class citizens, considering they could not produce children, which seems like the biggest reason the military would promote families. More children means more future soldiers to fight for them later, it seems like Cardassian government would make anyone who does not produce children second class citizens.

 

[Kilana2]

We learn from the Terok Nor novels, that Cardassian females who are infertile are not allowed to marry, but have good chances of achieving higher military ranks.

 

[Shada Dukal]

Yes, Cardassian society is very rigid in terms of family matters and infertile women are unwanted for marriage but still they can choose a career or have relationships. So I guess there are two strata – the official one where the state and social conventions dominate the individual and a second informal one where people secretly do everything that the official layer frowns upon including homosexuality, illegitimate children, mistresses outside marriage, alien comfort women. No state controls everything and in fact, it is not necessary, some vents are a must. Dukat’s demise was caused by the fact that he wanted recognition for his hybrid daughter in the official part of the Cardassian society.

In this sense, the comfort women are an unmentionable topic – they exist only on affiliated and client worlds for the high-ranking military personnel stationed there. Besides, I believe it was a matter of prestige – on Cardassia prominent Guls and Legates have mistresses outside marriage as a token of their social importance. Damar did the same as Legate. Therefore, comfort women are the closest approximation to Cardassian mistresses in alien surroundings. Luxurious, exotic pets enhancing the owner’s prestige.

The comfort women rounded up by Basso Tromak including Meru struck me as quite uncomplicated down-to-earth creatures that took to their new assignments like ducks to water without any complaints and did not appear miserable or devastated. Kira had a problem with accepting that, not Meru. Not every Bajoran can have the mentality of a Resistance fighter and opulence and prestige are enticing.

 

[Timo]

As of the early 21st century, there are already plenty of successful national liberation movements to offer both examples and inspiration.

This is basically a fallacy known as survivor bias. The statistically far more numerous cases where liberation does no good are not observed because there's nobody at liberty to talk about them...

And why would what happens on some backwater planet at the edge of nowhere affect Bajoran thinking? France was liberated from the Germans because the British cared (or had interests that amounted to some caring on the side). French resistance would not have contributed to the liberation of France if not for a foreign invasion that made the actual liberation happen; once that invasion happened, resistance was of some help, which again creates the illusion that it could have amounted to something on its own.

..the biggest reason the military would promote families.

Is it the doing of the military? Dukat is military, and doesn't seem to care. Dukat's co-workers don't seem to care, either. But the Cardassian society is old and supposedly fairly stable, and may have had rigid social practices long before the military "took over" or began scoring points with its conquest-and-loot campaign.

Besides, I believe it was a matter of prestige – on Cardassia prominent Guls and Legates have mistresses outside marriage as a token of their social importance.

That would be an interesting nuance, but I don't think we ever actually learn of such a thing in the episodes. Do the novels go into this, then?

Damar did the same as Legate.

Hmh? Damar was a bachelor as far as we know - how would "mistresses" apply? And being surrounded by women isn't exactly what we see in the episodes - being surrounded by empty bottles is the actual sight we have to confront.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kilana2]

Damar did the same as Legate.

Hmh? Damar was a bachelor as far as we know - how would "mistresses" apply? And being surrounded by women isn't exactly what we see in the episodes - being surrounded by empty bottles is the actual sight we have to confront.

Timo Saloniemi

Damar had a wife and at least a son who were killed by the Dominion. He may have had a lover, but not a Bajoran one. He didn´t share Dukat´s fondness of Bajoran women.

 

[Timo]

I completely missed that one. And the classic "Yeah, Damar, what kind of people give those orders?" retort...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

As of the early 21st century, there are already plenty of successful national liberation movements to offer both examples and inspiration.

This is basically a fallacy known as survivor bias. The statistically far more numerous cases where liberation does no good are not observed because there's nobody at liberty to talk about them...

You are scraping the bottom of the barrel with this ridiculous apologia. Ignore direct physical and psychological suffering for maybe the promise of future improvement ... when? You don't fight back because you might fail? Yes, the evidence may suggest that most attempts at resistance fail, but that does not invalidate them. Moreover, it's less likely that widespread and pervasive persecution will simply subside, especially over a perceived racial divide. No one is getting on the train to go to a nice sunny place.