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Killing baby Nero, Vulcans can wait it out...

KottenFutz

Lieutenant
Red Shirt
Something that came to mind while posting in another thread... Vulcans live a long time, and with a good dose of vengful purpose, one of the ten thousand survivors of planet Vulcans blip out of existence could easily live long enough (prospering along the way I'm sure) to either stop Nero in the 24th century from going back in time, OR keeping the Rommie bastard from being born in the first damn place. Meaning, Nero could himself be the architect of his own paradoxial demise. Is that a plot hole, or just a fanfic idea?

Or is it just a bad topic for a TrekBBS thread?
 
The timeline has already been changed. Nero may not be born at all, and he certainly won't become the same man who would've tried to destroy Vulcan to avenge his home planet (if only because there won't be any Vulcan to wrong him).
 
The timeline has already been changed. Nero may not be born at all, and he certainly won't become the same man who would've tried to destroy Vulcan to avenge his home planet (if only because there won't be any Vulcan to wrong him).
Oh, there you go spoiling the whole movie for me!!!:shifty:
Now I have to go on an internet search to find a plausable reason out of the paradox, like I did with Terminator 2!!!

GGGRRRRARGHHHH!
 
Something that came to mind while posting in another thread... Vulcans live a long time, and with a good dose of vengful purpose, one of the ten thousand survivors of planet Vulcans blip out of existence could easily live long enough (prospering along the way I'm sure) to either stop Nero in the 24th century from going back in time, OR keeping the Rommie bastard from being born in the first damn place. Meaning, Nero could himself be the architect of his own paradoxial demise. Is that a plot hole, or just a fanfic idea?

Or is it just a bad topic for a TrekBBS thread?
The main problem I see with this idea is that a survivor of the destruction of Vulcan is in a different timeline from the one in which Nero originates. That survivor could live forever and he or she would still have no means of getting to the time and place containing the child who would grow up to become Nero, Destroyer of Vulcan -- they'd be in the wrong universe.
 
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^ Agreed.

The old timeline still exists, but no one from the Abrams timeline can ever reach it. This is closer to any possible 'real' idea of time travel - you can't change the existing timeline, only create a new one. Even if somebody went back in time and saved the Kelvin, the ST XI timeline would still exist. There'd just be a *third* timeline - prime, Abrams, and 'double prime'.
 
The timeline has already been changed. Nero may not be born at all, and he certainly won't become the same man who would've tried to destroy Vulcan to avenge his home planet (if only because there won't be any Vulcan to wrong him).
Oh, there you go spoiling the whole movie for me!!!:shifty:
Now I have to go on an internet search to find a plausable reason out of the paradox, like I did with Terminator 2!!!

GGGRRRRARGHHHH!

I don't think you understood his post. There is no paradox.
 
Anyway, Vulcans are logical (supposedly) and claim to be pacifists and any notion of revenge would be highly frowned upon. As a baby, Nero would be an innocent child and that would be cold blooded murder. So, I doubt this would ever be considered by Vulcans. You would need a true lunatic Vulcan to do this like that one on DS9 and the survivors we saw seemed to calmly accept their fate.
 
Yes, but each Doc is in a seperate universe.

rimshot.gif
 
Anyway, Vulcans are logical (supposedly) and claim to be pacifists and any notion of revenge would be highly frowned upon.

For the most part, yes. But their planet was destroyed. And we have seen vulcans behaving badly, such as Spock's brother (if you count that movie as canon) and the vulcan assassin in that one DS9 episode (where he's shooting people with that projectile/transporter weapon).
 
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Anyway, Vulcans are logical (supposedly) and claim to be pacifists and any notion of revenge would be highly frowned upon.

For the most part, yes. But their planet was destroyed. And we have seen vulcans behaving badly, such as Spock's brother (if you count that movie as canon) and the vulcan assassin in that one DS9 episode (where he's shooting people with that projectile/transporter weapon).

And beyond that, this is a situation could change the way Vulcans behave for many decades if not centuries to come. The loss of your entire planet by one mad man may test all logic. They could revert to those barbaric days of ancient Vulcans rage... a true test of any one man's resolve, let alone an entire species. And if not the entire race, then splinter pockets among them. Nero's actions have changed EVERYTHING for the Vulcans. It's hard to fathom that none among them will seek some retribution. Perhaps if only to eradicate the Romulans entirely… the possibilities are unending.

And yes, indeed it is a different timeline, but does that still eliminate the notion? We've all considered the "go back thru time and kill baby Hitler” scenario; SO WHAT IF: Hitler at the prime of his power in the 1930's goes back in time and attempts another Jewish genocide in 1850? You think any survivor, knowing that the enemy of their race will be born in a few decades, will settle to do nothing? Technically Hitler's damage is done and time is altered, what difference would that make to the mind of the vengeful? Logic or not, it would interest me to see the outcome of a Trek universe changed by the 24th century, what will become of the man named Nero in the new timeline, histories greatest enemy of the Vulcan race without yet being born? Will he be held responsible for the actions of his counterpart? Vulcans will never forget.
 
The timeline has already been changed.
No timelines were changed. The writers gave the characters preternatural knowledge of this, which they couldn't possibly have had otherwise, for the express purpose of passing this information on to the audience. After they went to all that trouble and risked derailing the movie by breaking the fourth wall, the writers' intent should be respected. What do you expect them to do, put up a neon sign that says ALTERNATE REALITIES, NOT ALTERNATE TIMELINES!!!!! :rommie:

Here's what happened:

In Reality A, the one that all Trek has existed in heretofore (excepting a few forays to the MU), Romulus was destroyed, and Vulcan is okay.

Nero and Spock ended up in Reality B, where Romulus was okay and Vulcan destroyed. Trek will now stay in this reality for the forseeable future and possibly never venture back into Reality A.

You can bop between the two realities or even find another one to venture into (the MU being just one of presumably infinite opitons) but in Reality A, Romulus will still be destroyed and Vulcan okay while in Reality B the reverse will be true.

Or, you can find a time machine and start changing the timelines of whatever reality you want to change. But if you like Vulcan to be safe, there's a reality for that, and if you like Romulus to be safe, there's a reality for that, too. And if you want them both safe or both blown up, betcha you could find realities that suit your tastes as well.

In fact, given infinite realities, every possible permutation imaginable does exist somewhere. So why bother with time travel at all?

Or is it just a bad topic for a TrekBBS thread?
Are you kidding?!? :D Timelines vs realities is a perennial favorite.

The old timeline still exists, but no one from the Abrams timeline can ever reach it.
The old reality exists, and all it takes is the right type of technobabble - malfunctioning transporter, badly-behaved temporal anomaly, the random Bajoran Orb - to propel the characters into that reality, at any point in its timeline - before Romulus's destruction or after.

Now we can argue whether it's altering timelines that create realities or the realities already exist and their timelines can be altered without creating any additional ones - but the outcome is the same either way.

And beyond that, this is a situation could change the way Vulcans behave for many decades if not centuries to come. The loss of your entire planet by one mad man may test all logic. They could revert to those barbaric days of ancient Vulcans rage... a true test of any one man's resolve, let alone an entire species. And if not the entire race, then splinter pockets among them. Nero's actions have changed EVERYTHING for the Vulcans. It's hard to fathom that none among them will seek some retribution. Perhaps if only to eradicate the Romulans entirely… the possibilities are unending.
Sounds fun! :bolian: And a good reason to keep Vulcan blowed up and keep those pesky Bajoran Orbs at bay, temporal anomalies on a leash and transporters in good repair so they do not frak up an interesting plotline.

And yes, indeed it is a different timeline, but does that still eliminate the notion?
Different reality, not different timeline!!!!

Spock from Reality A (Nimoy) doesn't have a motive to go back to Reality A and kill Nero because Vulcan in Reality A was never blown up. If possible, he should try to go back to Reality A and save Romulus, but I'm not even sure that's an option. The star will still blow up, and can even Starfleet tech stop that?

Spock from Reality B (Quinto) has a motive to stop Vulcan from being blown up, but so far we have an example of travel between realities, not travel within time. So how does Spock B travel in time? He doesn't even know how to travel between realities, since Spock A doesn't know how to retrace his steps, and if Spock B goes to Reality A, Vulcan is just fine there, but his Vulcan is still blown up. Unless a Bajoran Orb drops on his head, he's stuck, and since the plotline he's embarked on sounds fun, we want him to stay stuck. I'm hoping for a really epic meltdown in the next movie! Rommies beware!!! :p
 
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Anyway, Vulcans are logical (supposedly) and claim to be pacifists and any notion of revenge would be highly frowned upon. As a baby, Nero would be an innocent child and that would be cold blooded murder. So, I doubt this would ever be considered by Vulcans. You would need a true lunatic Vulcan to do this like that one on DS9 and the survivors we saw seemed to calmly accept their fate.

They may be pacifist in general but Spock is only half Vulcan and he proved it twice in the film. Also with their homeland destroyed their primeval emotions may surface, Sareks did because he admitted that he married for love, and to a Vulcan love is not logical.
 
Yeah, I guess you guys are right. It would be a scary thing for the Federation's enemies to know that they could unleash a hoard of enraged Vulcans on them at any time!
 
I don't know about what these Vulcans in Abramsverse may do, or, albeit some faction-hey, anything is possible, I suppose...but one thing IS known...if you follow that what happened to Romulus may well occur in this reality, those who are aware of the impending catastrophe at Romulus-including Young Spock, who, despite his relative lack of emotional control, and lesser maturity-by Vulcan standards, can in time move past his grief, and anger...'I DO NOT WANT to be logical'....can come to as Prime did do his best to prevent the loss of billions of lives-and many being those who are not in the military, but innocent civilians, some of whom may as in the PU, espouse a different attiude towards Vulcans-indeed, even grieve the loss of their brethren(In fact, after all, the PU Romulan Government wanted to reunify-if with the wrong methods, so, Spock here could well in time-and he among them all, has plenty-we assume-to prevent what his counterpart could not...and never mind the fact that, elsewhere, his Homeworld's leaders stood by, or delayed...and Jim Kirk, who tried extending a hand even to Nero, would believe in doing the right thing, as well...and Pike knows well why Nero was intent on his revenge....so, it's something to consider...
 
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