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Khan was married. Who performed the ceremony?

Carol did the presentation for Starfleet. Either that means she was in charge, or that who ever was in charge knew about Kirk and Carol, and that Kirk had a vote on whether their project gained traction.
Carol always struck me as the head of the project, but this could be based on seniority or credentials, it’s not necessarily because there is a proper rank structure. She did the presentation, but again this could have been just because she was the best person for the job, not because she was chief of anything.

If she was in the same field of science as David, then she would have picked it up, that something was very wrong.
not necessarily: David might have been assigned to solve a specific problem and his mother might only have known it had been solved. These things are obviously very complex and you can be specialized on relatively tiny details without knowing much about others.
Still, it stands to reason that David couldn’t have used the protomatter alone: someone else on the team must have known about it and decided it was ok to use it for them as well.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Khan could ever have considered McGivers his "beloved wife" when we saw how he basically beat the crap out of her when they met in "Space Seed".
i’m sure plenty of wife-beaters consider their wives “beloved” and plenty of abused women think noteless that their abusers love them.
 
Khan is too strong to irrationally beat his wife without killing her.

It's very difficult to be so angry that he wants to continuously strike her, but so careful as not to maim her.
 
Yeah. And in the episode every act of violence towards her was obvious a very calculated part of a bigger manipulation scheme.
 
He acts like a small-time cult leader, in it for th p##sy, when actually Khan was the king of a huge kingdom.

It's possible that the civil service that grew up around him, facilitated the growth and continuity of rule.

Khan was just along for the ride, and anyone sitting on his throne would do, to keep the empire errect.
 
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Khan could ever have considered McGivers his "beloved wife" when we saw how he basically beat the crap out of her when they met in "Space Seed".

Abusers often make claims like this. That doesn't mean they actually love their victims, of course, but they often claim they do, and they may even think they do. (Because for them, "love" is about control.)

Khan is too strong to irrationally beat his wife without killing her.

Abuse isn't always about losing control of anger. Abusers can use violence quite intentionally and in a calculated manner.

He acts like a small-time cult leader, in it for th p##sy, when actually Khan was the king of a huge kingdom.

I mean, "acts like a cult leader and is obsessed with sexually dominating multiple women" is a pretty common description of male dictators. Idi Amin, Muammar Gaddafi, Kim Jung-il, Henry VIII of England, Charles II of England, Benito Mussolini, etc. It's not uncommon amongst leaders of nominally democratic states, either; just ask Donald Trump, Silvio Berlusconni, or Bill Clinton.

It's possible that the civil service that grew up around him, facilitated the growth and continuity of rule.

Khan was just along for the ride, and anyone sitting on his throne would do, to keep the empire errect.

For whatever it's worth, the two-part Eugenics Wars novel series by Greg Cox depicts Khan as coming to power unofficially, as a sort of "power behind the throne," with overt formal governance still being nominally maintained by (IIRC) the government of the Republic of India and the governments of other nearby states he'd assumed power over.

I'm not convinced Augments are even capable of love.

Augments are like Nietscheans from Andromeda. Cold, calculating, ruthless, caring only for power. Love would be an alien concept to them.

I mean, Julian Bashir is an Augment, and he's certainly capable of love. So is Sarina Douglas. Jack, Patrick, and Lauren all seemed capable of love to me, even if they were mentally disordered.

There is a possibility that the specific group of Augments created by the folks who created Khan might not be capable of love as a result of the genetic alterations made to them by their creators. But, even then, I think that would be a very broad conclusion to drawn on the basis of an exceedingly small sample size -- we've basically only met Khan, his followers, and a handful of Augments from ENT Season Four. And frankly it's unclear what kinds of childhoods any of them had; we know the ENT Augments were raised by Arik Soong, who was probably emotionally abusive and raised them with fantasies of superiority and dominance.

And frankly, I don't really see why Khan wouldn't have been deposed by his Augment followers at some point in the course of his reign if they didn't love him in some manner. He fucked up enough that a group of Augments who didn't experience a feeling of sentimental loyalty to him should have tried to overthrow him at some point.

I think it makes much more sense to assume that Khan is incapable of love, and that specific individuals from the group of Augments he was created from may not be capable of love, than to assume that all Augments are incapable of love.
 
He acts like a small-time cult leader,
a lot like a cult leader, yes.

in it for th p##sy,
I don’t think so: I don’t think he was really that interested in her sexually or in her specifically, but more in her as a way to get control of the ship. She probably stuck with her afterwards due to a skewed concept of honor that obliged him to “care for” his subjects.

He wanted to hurt her.
I don’t think so. He hurt her only as a mean to an end.
 
a lot like a cult leader, yes.

I don’t think so: I don’t think he was really that interested in her sexually or in her specifically, but more in her as a way to get control of the ship. She probably stuck with her afterwards due to a skewed concept of honor that obliged him to “care for” his subjects.

I don’t think so. He hurt her only as a mean to an end.

Nah. He didn't have to physically abuse her to manipulate her. He enjoyed it.
 
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Khan could ever have considered McGivers his "beloved wife" when we saw how he basically beat the crap out of her when they met in "Space Seed".

I'm not convinced Augments are even capable of love.
To be fair, it was the 1960s when the show aired, and men who did what Khan did were considered "manly..."
 
As a Superman, it's his job to seed.

Having a baby with a superwoman is a waste of time.

Diversity.

If the women on Enterprise were not fair game, then McCoy's Sperm bank certainly was.

When two star ships meet, they must exchange Sperm, so that no donor has to watch a baby bump on a comrad, and wonder if they helped make it.
 
I have a female friend who was married and had children with an abusive husband (all over a period of years.). They eventually divorced and later on he committed suicide. He really was nuts. But now that he is gone he has retrospectively become a saint. The bad is forgotten. Perhaps this explains the “beloved” comment.
 
Another possibility is that during their years in exile Khan and Marla did legitimately fall in love. If Khan manipulated Marla initially to gain control of the Enterprise, that was a moot point once they were on CA5.
 
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Khan could ever have considered McGivers his "beloved wife" when we saw how he basically beat the crap out of her when they met in "Space Seed".
Another possibility is that during their years in exile Khan and Marla did legitimately fall in love.
I think Khan was legitimately in love with Marla McGivers. It's just that his idea of love was twisted (because duh, he's a villain) and McGivers was screwed up enough in her own way to accept what he offered as love. It was clearly an abusive relationship, and the creators of Star Trek obviously knew this when they made "Space Seed." I don't think the episode ever paints their relationship as anything other than massively dysfunctional.
 
I agree that what we see in the episode isn't love, but I'd like to think that during their years in exile they could have found some real happiness with each other, especially given the hell they went through for almost the entirety of their exile.
 
I agree that what we see in the episode isn't love, but I'd like to think that during their years in exile they could have found some real happiness with each other, especially given the hell they went through for almost the entirety of their exile.
I'm sure they did. I just don't think it was ever anything approaching a healthy relationship by the standards of well-adjusted people.
 
I'm just glad they didn't bring Marla back as someone just as vested in taking revenge on Our Heroes as Khan. That would have been deeply disappointing.
 
I think Khan was legitimately in love with Marla McGivers. It's just that his idea of love was twisted (because duh, he's a villain) and McGivers was screwed up enough in her own way to accept what he offered as love. It was clearly an abusive relationship, and the creators of Star Trek obviously knew this when they made "Space Seed." I don't think the episode ever paints their relationship as anything other than massively dysfunctional.
Yet Kirk had no issue in letting her stay with khan and with no way ever to change her mind.
I'm just glad they didn't bring Marla back as someone just as vested in taking revenge on Our Heroes as Khan. That would have been deeply disappointing.
on the other hand, having her as a conflicted character could have been interesting, perhaps.
 
Abusers often make claims like this. That doesn't mean they actually love their victims, of course, but they often claim they do, and they may even think they do. (Because for them, "love" is about control.)



Abuse isn't always about losing control of anger. Abusers can use violence quite intentionally and in a calculated manner.



I mean, "acts like a cult leader and is obsessed with sexually dominating multiple women" is a pretty common description of male dictators. Idi Amin, Muammar Gaddafi, Kim Jung-il, Henry VIII of England, Charles II of England, Benito Mussolini, etc. It's not uncommon amongst leaders of nominally democratic states, either; just ask Donald Trump, Silvio Berlusconni, or Bill Clinton.



For whatever it's worth, the two-part Eugenics Wars novel series by Greg Cox depicts Khan as coming to power unofficially, as a sort of "power behind the throne," with overt formal governance still being nominally maintained by (IIRC) the government of the Republic of India and the governments of other nearby states he'd assumed power over.





I mean, Julian Bashir is an Augment, and he's certainly capable of love. So is Sarina Douglas. Jack, Patrick, and Lauren all seemed capable of love to me, even if they were mentally disordered.

There is a possibility that the specific group of Augments created by the folks who created Khan might not be capable of love as a result of the genetic alterations made to them by their creators. But, even then, I think that would be a very broad conclusion to drawn on the basis of an exceedingly small sample size -- we've basically only met Khan, his followers, and a handful of Augments from ENT Season Four. And frankly it's unclear what kinds of childhoods any of them had; we know the ENT Augments were raised by Arik Soong, who was probably emotionally abusive and raised them with fantasies of superiority and dominance.

And frankly, I don't really see why Khan wouldn't have been deposed by his Augment followers at some point in the course of his reign if they didn't love him in some manner. He fucked up enough that a group of Augments who didn't experience a feeling of sentimental loyalty to him should have tried to overthrow him at some point.

I think it makes much more sense to assume that Khan is incapable of love, and that specific individuals from the group of Augments he was created from may not be capable of love, than to assume that all Augments are incapable of love.

24th century augments were raised in a secret shame, guilty without consideration for the crimes oh Khan. Bashfully they kept to the shadows certain that a wrong word means sterilization and life imprisonment.

Or is that sterilization OR imprisonment?

Sterilization does not effect clone donation.

Children of Time?

Was Bashir family half the assholes that Worf's kids were?

Point is, Khan was Simba from the Lion King.

Present to the applauding world as this glorious thing that was going to eat every one's kids.
 
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