Khan and the Eugenics War

[Yistaan]

Spoiler

You think that he was responsible for creating the Confderacy timeline? I don't think so, but hey, who knows.
I think Wesley may have thought of something else there.

Didn't you find the whole exchange a bit... ridiculous?
I didn't mind Wesley showing up or accepting his explanations that the Travellers are the ones behind ensuring proper flow of time and individual destinies.
My problems were:
1. The fact that Kore was deemed 'special enough' to be invited to join the Travellers (she gets space time powers now?) because to me, she seemed fairly unremarkable compared to Wesley... and didn't seem to possess same 'understanding' of higher things like he did. Sure, she may be Soong's daughter and may have had similarly high intellectual capabilities, but still.

2. That Kore would just blindly accept Wesley's (quite frankly 'outlandish' - at least from her perspective) claims without an issue and just left with him (although, Wesley did explain things the best he could and was open with her). Granted, upon accepting his offer and seeing the transporter effect in action, this would have been moot and would have proved things to her... but I'm more surprised she never required some kind of 'evidence' of his claims before agreeing - for all she knew, she could have been joining a cult of delusional people (who talk about preserving the proper flow of time).

I don't recall during the course of the season while Q interacted with her that he explained who and what he was, what he could do, or about possibility of temporal manipulation/preservation etc.

Spoiler

The worst part is the message it sends. It basically proves Soong right. That his way of genetically engineering people from scratch instead of improving life for those who are already here is superior. Kore, a genetically engineered artificially created being, gets to join the Travelers while Wesley probably passed over a bunch of average Federation citizens who worked decades longer and harder (we didn't exactly see him recruiting people every other week on the franchise).

Soong is basically given a moral victory.

 

[Deks]

Spoiler

The worst part is the message it sends. It basically proves Soong right. That his way of genetically engineering people from scratch instead of improving life for those who are already here is superior. Kore, a genetically engineered artificially created being, gets to join the Travelers while Wesley probably passed over a bunch of average Federation citizens who worked decades longer and harder (we didn't exactly see him recruiting people every other week on the franchise).

Soong is basically given a moral victory.

Spoiler

Perhaps not.
Maybe we are looking at it the wrong way.
What if Wesley changed which people the Travellers 'recruit'? Perhaps Wesley (with his space-time abilities) was able to see possible futures in various individuals and decided to start recruiting them regardless of their origins or timelines (assuming of course their removal from the timeline wouldn't otherwise damage it).

For that matter, it is definitely possible that instead of looking for that which is 'special' from 'birth' (as alluded by the Traveller originally in TNG), Wesley instead looks at people from their general accomplishments in life and how much effort they put in - basically, what you suggested (meaning that existing people who are here and now are no longer overlooked) - its possible he may have changed that for other Travellers as well - remember that before Wesley joined, the Travellers were never really interested in Humans or the Federation until TNG rolled around - probably because UFP reached a level of technological and scientific development where contact was warranted - which all the more ruins Disco in the future for me because its the UFP that should have been on 10c level of science and technology [aka, Type II to III], but on a galactic scale by the 32nd century, whereas 10c should have probably been Type IV or close to being Type IV).

I still find Kore to be fairly unremarkable (if we were given more screen time with her to flesh her out and show maybe some 'deeper' understanding of higher thing without Soong's influence then I'd be more ameniable to her joining the Travellers - as it is, it just seems out of the blue... but its possible she was given this chance NOT because she was genetically engineered, but because in part of her rather sad upbringing.
This wouldn't give any kind of 'victory' to Soong though if you ask me... because I don't think how Kore came to be matters to Wesley, but maybe what he sees she might be capable of achieving with the Travellers does.

To be fair, I don't think it was ever mentioned throughout the course of the season that Kore was genetically enhanced in any way. Soong did create her using genetic engineering, but he did so in an attempt to rid her of the genetic disease she was born with - I don't recall any mention of her having increased intellect, stamina, strength or enhanced lifespan compared to other humans.

 

[Yistaan]

Spoiler

Perhaps not.
Maybe we are looking at it the wrong way.
What if Wesley changed which people the Travellers 'recruit'? Perhaps Wesley (with his space-time abilities) was able to see possible futures in various individuals and decided to start recruiting them regardless of their origins or timelines (assuming of course their removal from the timeline wouldn't otherwise damage it).

For that matter, it is definitely possible that instead of looking for that which is 'special' from 'birth' (as alluded by the Traveller originally in TNG), Wesley instead looks at people from their general accomplishments in life and how much effort they put in - basically, what you suggested (meaning that existing people who are here and now are no longer overlooked) - its possible he may have changed that for other Travellers as well - remember that before Wesley joined, the Travellers were never really interested in Humans or the Federation until TNG rolled around - probably because UFP reached a level of technological and scientific development where contact was warranted - which all the more ruins Disco in the future for me because its the UFP that should have been on 10c level of science and technology [aka, Type II to III], but on a galactic scale by the 32nd century, whereas 10c should have probably been Type IV or close to being Type IV).

I still find Kore to be fairly unremarkable (if we were given more screen time with her to flesh her out and show maybe some 'deeper' understanding of higher thing without Soong's influence then I'd be more ameniable to her joining the Travellers - as it is, it just seems out of the blue... but its possible she was given this chance NOT because she was genetically engineered, but because in part of her rather sad upbringing.
This wouldn't give any kind of 'victory' to Soong though if you ask me... because I don't think how Kore came to be matters to Wesley, but maybe what he sees she might be capable of achieving with the Travellers does.

To be fair, I don't think it was ever mentioned throughout the course of the season that Kore was genetically enhanced in any way. Soong did create her using genetic engineering, but he did so in an attempt to rid her of the genetic disease she was born with - I don't recall any mention of her having increased intellect, stamina, strength or enhanced lifespan compared to other humans.

Spoiler

My impression is that while it wasn't outright stated, between the Khan folder and Kore's immediate ability once her handicaps are removed to get by in a society she's been isolated from and even do advanced hacking from her local library was that she was indeed intended to be enhanced in some way, if there hadn't been errors ultimately causing her to be allergic to everything.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

@Deks, no, I wasn't thinking of the Confederation timeline.

Spoiler

I was referring to Terry Matalas' speculation that the Eugenics Wars have somehow been moved to the 21st century. Perhaps THAT is what Wesley was talking about.

And for the record, no, I don't think the wars have been moved, and I really could give a frog's fat ass what ing Matalas says. Like I said, I'm sticking with the headcanon that there were multiple wars. Some from 1992-96, and some in the 21st century. Easy peasy.

 

[Yistaan]

@Deks, no, I wasn't thinking of the Confederation timeline.

Spoiler

I was referring to Terry Matalas' speculation that the Eugenics Wars have somehow been moved to the 21st century. Perhaps THAT is what Wesley was talking about.

And for the record, no, I don't think the wars have been moved, and I really could give a frog's fat ass what ing Matalas says. Like I said, I'm sticking with the headcanon that there were multiple wars. Some from 1992-96, and some in the 21st century. Easy peasy.

Spoiler

Matalas isn't even consistent because he says that Guinan and the bus punk wouldn't remember Time's Arrow and ST4 because of the Confed timeline. However as it all ended up overall they ultimately had to remember what happened as it all ended up being Prime Timeline. I personally pretend Guinan recognized Picard once she heard his name and just didn't want to waste time mentioning Time's Arrow.

 

[Noname Given]

Yep. And now they've gone out of their way to contradict him, and to say publicly that they're doing it deliberately to fix a problem.

Spoiler

If the project that created the Augments began in 1996 (Per Picard S2 Ep. 10) - technically, it's not a contradiction

 

[Tuskin38]

@Deks, no, I wasn't thinking of the Confederation timeline.

Spoiler

I was referring to Terry Matalas' speculation that the Eugenics Wars have somehow been moved to the 21st century. Perhaps THAT is what Wesley was talking about.

And for the record, no, I don't think the wars have been moved, and I really could give a frog's fat ass what ing Matalas says. Like I said, I'm sticking with the headcanon that there were multiple wars. Some from 1992-96, and some in the 21st century. Easy peasy.

Spoiler

I mean, it wasn't Matalas wasn't the first, but also the writers of DS9. While they didn't technically move the wars, they purposely made their time period vague because they weren't happening IRL

Spoiler

If the project that created the Augments began in 1996 (Per Picard S2 Ep. 10) - technically, it's not a contradiction

Spoiler

It's a contradiction as 1996 is the year Khan left Earth according to the old lore

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

@Tuskin38, if you're thinking of "Doctor Bashir, I Presume"? No, that was a writing mistake, nothing more. It was never intended to be binding.

 

[fireproof78]

@Tuskin, if you're thinking of "Doctor Bashir, I Presume"? No, that was a writing mistake, nothing more. It was never intended to be binding.

When are items binding?

 

[Tuskin38]

@Tuskin, if you're thinking of "Doctor Bashir, I Presume"? No, that was a writing mistake, nothing more. It was never intended to be binding.

No, I'm talking about comments made by Ronald D. Moore.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Eugenics_Wars#Background_information

(AOL chat, 1997) Confessed Moore, "It was simply a mistake. The date of the Eugenics Wars is something that we have been studiously trying not to pin ourselves down about, because obviously they aren't happening around as we speak [....] What looked like the distant future in 1967 is not so distant any more. I don't blame them for not having the foresight to see that in 30 years this would become important in the series."

 

[NCC-73515]

perhaps this should be a spoiler thread

 

[NCC-73515]

The new episode (SNW S2E3) suggests that

Spoiler

the eugenics wars were supposed to happen in the 90s, but the timeline was already changed in SNW to have it happen later.

 

[Tuskin38]

You should specify which episode since not everyone knows it released early by accident

 

[NCC-73515]

Right, done

 

[Tuskin38]

The new episode (SNW S2E3) suggests that

Spoiler

the eugenics wars were supposed to happen in the 90s, but the timeline was already changed in SNW to have it happen later.

Spoiler

Makes me wonder if there's going to be a later episode correcting that. Though would that in turn make La'an older since Khan would be older?

 

[Yistaan]

Spoiler

Makes me wonder if there's going to be a later episode correcting that. Though would that in turn make La'an older since Khan would be older?

Spoiler

Realistically whole swaths of history would be changed. La'an in theory probably wouldn't even exist anymore after the change to be honest.

Even the Kelvin timeline still calls Khan a 300 year old man, something he wouldn't be in the new altered Eugenics War timeline. The great grandfather of Jonathan Archer who fought in the Eugenics Wars mentioned in Enterprise probably would now be too old to do so. Stavos Keniclius from TAS probably has his entire history altered. And so on.

It's like Trek doubled down on its Khan fixation even after Star Trek Into Darkness. They should've just left well enough alone and swept augments and the Eugenics Wars under the rug like 90s Trek

 

[fireproof78]

Spoiler

Realistically whole swaths of history would be changed. La'an in theory probably wouldn't even exist anymore after the change to be honest.

Even the Kelvin timeline still calls Khan a 300 year old man, something he wouldn't be in the new altered Eugenics War timeline. The great grandfather of Jonathan Archer who fought in the Eugenics Wars mentioned in Enterprise probably would now be too old to do so. Stavos Keniclius from TAS probably has his entire history altered. And so on.

It's like Trek doubled down on its Khan fixation even after Star Trek Into Darkness. They should've just left well enough alone and swept augments and the Eugenics Wars under the rug like 90s Trek

Spoiler

Fans love Khan though. He's the top of the list on all the fan favorites.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Spoiler

Fans love Khan though. He's the top of the list on all the fan favorites.

so is Kai Winn, but no one is bringing her back every 5 years

 

[fireproof78]

so is Kai Winn, but no one is bringing her back every 5 years

One is associated with what is considered the greatest Trek movie ever. It doesn't surprise me at the recurrence.

 

[Yistaan]

so is Kai Winn, but no one is bringing her back every 5 years

The Borg Queen is being brought back every other year though, including a variation of her in literally. every. season. of. Picard.