Ketrecel-white
- Thread starter Valenti
- Start date
The Founders made it, the Vorta dispensed it. And apparently the Son'a figured out how to make their own. But reproducing it was apparently beyond the abilities of Federation science, even replicators couldn't figure out how to duplicate it.
The ability for the Federation or its enemies to replicate or overcome a given technology is always based entirely on story convenience.
I don't recall the info about the Federation being unable to make White, but even if so, why is that "too convenient"? What good would it do anyone to produce White? The Jem'Hadar are still genetically programmed to serve the Dominion, so what is to be gained by making them some drugs?
Genetically programmed? What does that mean? I thought the drug addiction was what was forcing them to obey the Founders and the rest was just brain washing or something, but if the Federation had the drug they could become a provider of it without the harsh regime that they had to follow with the Founders.
Tainting the drugs to kill the Jem`Hadar off, we know the Federation isn't above such moves.
It is generally accepted that some kind of genetic engineering took place that makes both the Vorta & Jem'Hadar genetically predisposed to respect, revere & obey the Founders. However, even Weyoun has suggested that the efficacy of that is a little overstated.
Plus, even if they were predisposed to obey Founders, that doesn't do much to aid the Vorta in commanding them directly, without a founder presence. The white is there to facilitate their dependency & obedience
They were genetically brainwashed, but as we've seen in several episodes (Hippocratic Oath, To The Death) the brainwashing is not absolute. Or we saw a Weyoun whose loyalty to the Founders didn't take, how often does it happen with Gem'Hadar? The physical dependence on the white is extra insurance that they will remain loyal.
What is it? If I were to spitball the most biologically plausible explanation based on my body of neuroscience knowledge, there's a neurotransmitter their brains produce a whole bunch of that causes rage, but also pain and depression and is toxic in extreme doses, and the white binds to the substrate that receives them. The guy from Hippocratic Oath probably had a brain that never produced the neurotransmitter to begin with. Or he may have had a shortage of the receptors.
We know from Statistical Probabilities that Vorta know the recipe to create it, but the ingredients are rare. Why it can't be replicated, yes it is convenience, but we also have never seen complex proteins replicated, so you can plausibly point to that.
Last edited:
Kinda makes you wonder why the Founders didn't just make and disseminate the white - but also declare a war on it.... have I said too much
That was the point though. The Founders were pretty wise for being isolationists. It might have hurt them in the end but the Dominion did become powerful for a reason.
The Founders probably didn't squeeze the stuff out of their own sweat glands - they most likely had factories for making the stuff (and the one Sisko destroyed by using the captured Jem'Hadar bugship may have been a frontline factory rather than a mere warehouse, as the heroes really shouldn't know one way or another yet), and factory workers for running the machinery.
Who were these workers? Another special species engineered to the purpose, perhaps (one we would never see as no purpose would be served by allowing any of those to step outside their factories).
Or then just a generic semi-subjugated species, much like the Karemma who made torps for the Dominion. In which case we might just as well say it was the Son'a. The Ba'ku hippies left some distant home - quite possibly in the Gamma Quadrant. The Son'a wrinklefaces then left the Ba'ku - but did not return all the way to Gamma where their original betrayal would be held against them, and instead used their superior Gamma knowhow to easily subjugate a couple of local species and founded a micro-Dominion to live in while they plotted their revenge.
The inability of Federation science (to wit, Julian Bashir) to create Ketracel White, by any means, is a plot point in "The Abandoned". But this episode is also the very first one in which the Federation actually obtains a sample of White to study. In all later episodes, we are free to think the Federation did know how to make White. The ability to replicate it would make no difference in "Hippocratic Oath" where doing so was the last thing Julian Bashir wanted (and the very last option he would have wanted the Jem'Hadar to know about). There were no replicators in "Rocks and Shoals". And so forth.
The big issue here is, why can't Bashir's food replicator in "The Abandoned" create fifty tons of White after he puts in a gram? Quark's food replicator was able to create a probability-skewing alien machine fifty times as large as the original after Martus Mazur put the original in, no "analysis" or "understanding" of the original required.
But the thing is, "The Abandoned" never claims Bashir cannot produce the at that point unnamed chemical compound. It merely states Bashir doesn't fully understand the substance until he runs some tests. His ignorance is never said to persist, as he ultimately gets the permission to run the tests, and indeed is shown pumping chemicals to the boy afterwards.
So, is this all just a big misunderstanding? Is there some piece of DS9 that actually states the Federation cannot produce Ketracel White at will?
Timo Saloniemi
Who were these workers? Another special species engineered to the purpose, perhaps (one we would never see as no purpose would be served by allowing any of those to step outside their factories).
Or then just a generic semi-subjugated species, much like the Karemma who made torps for the Dominion. In which case we might just as well say it was the Son'a. The Ba'ku hippies left some distant home - quite possibly in the Gamma Quadrant. The Son'a wrinklefaces then left the Ba'ku - but did not return all the way to Gamma where their original betrayal would be held against them, and instead used their superior Gamma knowhow to easily subjugate a couple of local species and founded a micro-Dominion to live in while they plotted their revenge.
The inability of Federation science (to wit, Julian Bashir) to create Ketracel White, by any means, is a plot point in "The Abandoned". But this episode is also the very first one in which the Federation actually obtains a sample of White to study. In all later episodes, we are free to think the Federation did know how to make White. The ability to replicate it would make no difference in "Hippocratic Oath" where doing so was the last thing Julian Bashir wanted (and the very last option he would have wanted the Jem'Hadar to know about). There were no replicators in "Rocks and Shoals". And so forth.
The big issue here is, why can't Bashir's food replicator in "The Abandoned" create fifty tons of White after he puts in a gram? Quark's food replicator was able to create a probability-skewing alien machine fifty times as large as the original after Martus Mazur put the original in, no "analysis" or "understanding" of the original required.
But the thing is, "The Abandoned" never claims Bashir cannot produce the at that point unnamed chemical compound. It merely states Bashir doesn't fully understand the substance until he runs some tests. His ignorance is never said to persist, as he ultimately gets the permission to run the tests, and indeed is shown pumping chemicals to the boy afterwards.
So, is this all just a big misunderstanding? Is there some piece of DS9 that actually states the Federation cannot produce Ketracel White at will?
Timo Saloniemi
The genetic programming was not infallible, as we saw. The ketracel was their fail safe. In the event that a rogue Jem'Hadar was born, the dependence on Ketracel would force them to the will of the Dominion anyway.
Statistical Probabilities pretty much guarantees that the Dominion itself can not replicate katracel white. They made territorial concessions just to get access to a planet rich in its precursor. Also destroying white facilities was often posed as a major strategic victory.
The machines Quark replicated were machines. They did not contain complex organic compounds, or complex protein or amino acid chains.
Destroying shipyards was said to be significant, too. But it appears the heroes were wrong about that - none of their heroic acts of destruction changed the fact that the Dominion outproduced the entire Axis of Alpha right till the end of the war.
We don't know whether the Dominion had replicators. Would Cardassian replicators have solved their White problems? I gather this depends also on whether they had White problems to begin with... They were always establishing "new" White facilities, right till "Penumbra". Was this a sign of problems, or of the opposite?
Would the machines of "Rivals" be less or more complex than food? They operated on a scientific basis the UFP could not comprehend, but I admit it doesn't follow that their components would automatically have been complex.
In the end, though, Star Trek remains devoid of references to it being impossible to replicate X, for all values of X. It's just temporarily impossible or not worth the hassle. But many a substance or machine falls in that latter category, and I guess it would be safe to assume White is one of those - else wouldn't the Jem'Hadar always head for Federation replicators first?
Timo Saloniemi
We don't know whether the Dominion had replicators. Would Cardassian replicators have solved their White problems? I gather this depends also on whether they had White problems to begin with... They were always establishing "new" White facilities, right till "Penumbra". Was this a sign of problems, or of the opposite?
Would the machines of "Rivals" be less or more complex than food? They operated on a scientific basis the UFP could not comprehend, but I admit it doesn't follow that their components would automatically have been complex.
In the end, though, Star Trek remains devoid of references to it being impossible to replicate X, for all values of X. It's just temporarily impossible or not worth the hassle. But many a substance or machine falls in that latter category, and I guess it would be safe to assume White is one of those - else wouldn't the Jem'Hadar always head for Federation replicators first?
Timo Saloniemi
That same episode also guarantees that the Federation at least had some knowledge about the steps necessary to produce it (but probably not enough to manufacture it themselves, if they'd wanted to).
Similar threads
