Kes Returns - what episode would you have made?

[Jack Wolfe]

None. She was a poorly thought out character, to begin with.

Agreed. On the whole, Kes was dishwater dull. Another character that sounded "kewl" in the elevator pitch but never came together in the writers room or on screen. It's a shame she wasn't written out sooner. Neelix actually blossomed without her bogging him down. And I'm not a Neelix fan.

As @Dukhat pointed out, Phillips and Lien had no chemistry whatsoever on camera. And @HotRod is spot on in saying their characters' relationship was problematic in the extreme (yes, I know they weren't human. But the audience is, and will always view things through that lens). Ultimately, Kes was more of a boat anchor in the series than anything else, on many levels.

I know this was meant to be Yet Another Kes Adoration Thread™, but the character simply didn't work and needed to go.

 

[HoHoHoRod]

Your comment is complete BS.

Perhaps. But it's my opinion, and apparently a valid one.

Comparing her with Maywater, who was as interesting as yesterdays leftover and the worthless crew of the horrible Discovery is actually insulting.

And yet, Mayweather WAS a more interesting character with an interesting history and played by a decent enough actor. As for Discovery and crew being horrible, I find that funny coming from a Voyager fan. Voyager, the show with absolutely the most wasted potential. Discovery was far from great. Hell, it was far from good. But at least it tried to do things differently. Voyager wasted it's potential and quickly became TNG lite.

As for Troi, she was OK except for her ability to get in relationships with slimy people like Devinion Ral and Ambassador Alkar. kes never did anything like that.

Kes started out with a slimey character. A slimy character that actually improved once she was gone.

Sleeping aids? Well, obviously you haven't watched episodes like Cold Fire, Persistence Of Vision and Warlord. Excellent episodes!

Seen them all. Not terribly interesting.

As for Seven, she was there to attract teenage boys to watch the series and to fulfill Braga's wet dreams about women in catsuits.

All true. Yet she rose above eye candy to become probably the most interesting and well developed character on the show, save for maybe the Doctor. She did that AND managed to bring the rating up a bit, proving that getting rid of the deadweight that was Kes was 100% the right decision.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

As for Seven, she was there to attract teenage boys to watch the series and to fulfill Braga's wet dreams about women in catsuits.

All I will say now is that I find the notion that Seven would b better than attracting male viewers than Kes a sign of limited thinking of people thinking so. Especially since Kes did wear catsuits during her last regular appearences.
And Kes is not deadweight. And, while maybe Voyager writers didn;t know how to write interesting stories for her, the same can be siaid for other characters like Chakotay, Tuvok, and probaly Harry Kim as well.

 

[Jack Wolfe]

And Kes is not deadweight.

Respectfully disagree.

And, while maybe Voyager writers didn;t know how to write interesting stories for her, the same can be siaid for other characters like Chakotay, Tuvok, and probaly Harry Kim as well.

The first two were poorly drawn stereotypes, and the last a punch line. The uneven writing and poor character development make Voyager my least favourite Trek series that I've watched all the way through.

It remains that Kes was the most poorly conceived character on the show and had less depth than Janeway's second-favourite coffee cup.

The toxic codependency love story of the Mayfly and the Hedgehog was painfully stupid. Fortunately, the Hedgehog recovered.

 

[King Bob!]

|I guess you find other things than myself interesting. I certinely think Kes is unique.

And, that’s okay. If we all thought alike, this would be a pretty dull place to hang out.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Respectfully disagree.


The first two were poorly drawn stereotypes, and the last a punch line. The uneven writing and poor character development make Voyager my least favourite Trek series that I've watched all the way through.

It remains that Kes was the most poorly conceived character on the show and had less depth than Janeway's second-favourite coffee cup.

The toxic codependency love story of the Mayfly and the Hedgehog was painfully stupid. Fortunately, the Hedgehog recovered.

Well, while I am not that against Neelix/Kes as many people here are, I do want to note that I do tend to separate the pairing and character. There are better pairings for her, and maybe being single all her life would be the best optiopn for Kes (when I write her, I ehtoiehr pair her with Tom Paris or leave her completely single. In latter part, I actually took made a small crossover with Star Wars and made her a Jedi, trained by ahsoka tano. but I digress.

And, well, even if character was poorl;y conceived, it certinaly can be salvaged, if one want to do it and have skills to do it.

 

[Jack Wolfe]

Well, while I am not that against Neelix/Kes as many people here are, I do want to note that I do tend to separate the pairing and character. There are better pairings for her, and maybe being single all her life would be the best optiopn for Kes (when I write her, I ehtoiehr pair her with Tom Paris or leave her completely single. In latter part, I actually took made a small crossover with Star Wars and made her a Jedi, trained by ahsoka tano. but I digress.

And, well, even if character was poorl;y conceived, it certinaly can be salvaged, if one want to do it and have skills to do it.

The show is over. What's done is done. Retconning off-screen doesn't matter.

Non-canon fan fiction doesn't interest me, nor does it change what the overwhelming majority of viewers experience(d). If the indulgence brings you comfort, that's great.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Well, while it's not Kes - related, Prodigy did fix a few things that were sore spots for fans ever since Voyager finale. So, while it';s improbble, it's not impossibl;e. It's not like Star Trek franchise is dead.

 

[King Bob!]

Well, while it's not Kes - related, Prodigy did fix a few things that were sore spots for fans ever since Voyager finale. So, while it';s improbble, it's not impossibl;e. It's not like Star Trek franchise is dead.

It really kind of is, for me. I’m not interested in watching new Trek try to “fix” older Trek. I want new, engaging characters and ideas.

 

[HoHoHoRod]

It really kind of is, for me. I’m not interested in watching new Trek try to “fix” older Trek. I want new, engaging characters and ideas.

See, this is an example where I disagree with you, and that's ok. It's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. The thing about you is that you're not an asshole about it. You don't preach it as gospel. You don't ram it down people's throats. You're an alright guy, Bill.

 

[Jack Wolfe]

Well, while it's not Kes - related, Prodigy did fix a few things that were sore spots for fans ever since Voyager finale. So, while it';s improbble, it's not impossibl;e. It's not like Star Trek franchise is dead.

It's not dead, I'll agree with you there. But it does have the feeling of being on life support at times.

I'll take your word about Prodigy. Like Lower Decks, it holds no interest for me.

 

[Oddish]

I know this was meant to be Yet Another Kes Adoration Thread™, but the character simply didn't work and needed to go.

Yeah, she needed to go. To a series with competent showrunners. And Harry needed to join her. Maybe Chakotay, too.

 

[Lynx]

Agreed. On the whole, Kes was dishwater dull. Another character that sounded "kewl" in the elevator pitch but never came together in the writers room or on screen. It's a shame she wasn't written out sooner. Neelix actually blossomed without her bogging him down. And I'm not a Neelix fan.

As @Dukhat pointed out, Phillips and Lien had no chemistry whatsoever on camera. And @HotRod is spot on in saying their characters' relationship was problematic in the extreme (yes, I know they weren't human. But the audience is, and will always view things through that lens). Ultimately, Kes was more of a boat anchor in the series than anything else, on many levels.

I know this was meant to be Yet Another Kes Adoration Thread™, but the character simply didn't work and needed to go.

Respectfully disagree.


The first two were poorly drawn stereotypes, and the last a punch line. The uneven writing and poor character development make Voyager my least favourite Trek series that I've watched all the way through.

It remains that Kes was the most poorly conceived character on the show and had less depth than Janeway's second-favourite coffee cup.

The toxic codependency love story of the Mayfly and the Hedgehog was painfully stupid. Fortunately, the Hedgehog recovered.

The show is over. What's done is done. Retconning off-screen doesn't matter.

Non-canon fan fiction doesn't interest me, nor does it change what the overwhelming majority of viewers experience(d). If the indulgence brings you comfort, that's great.

It's not dead, I'll agree with you there. But it does have the feeling of being on life support at times.

I'll take your word about Prodigy. Like Lower Decks, it holds no interest for me.

And your rude, toxic comments abot Kes are of no interest for me.
I find them insulting, filled of hate and not constructive at all.

Perhaps. But it's my opinion, and apparently a valid one.

And yet, Mayweather WAS a more interesting character with an interesting history and played by a decent enough actor. As for Discovery and crew being horrible, I find that funny coming from a Voyager fan. Voyager, the show with absolutely the most wasted potential. Discovery was far from great. Hell, it was far from good. But at least it tried to do things differently. Voyager wasted it's potential and quickly became TNG lite.

Kes started out with a slimey character. A slimy character that actually improved once she was gone.

Seen them all. Not terribly interesting.

All true. Yet she rose above eye candy to become probably the most interesting and well developed character on the show, save for maybe the Doctor. She did that AND managed to bring the rating up a bit, proving that getting rid of the deadweight that was Kes was 100% the right decision.

Discovery was crap and Enterprise too. Voyager was good for three seasons, before it became The Seven Of Nine Show.
That's my opinions and valid ones.
As for ratings, they continued to go down after season 3, despite the "changes".

All I will say now is that I find the notion that Seven would b better than attracting male viewers than Kes a sign of limited thinking of people thinking so. Especially since Kes did wear catsuits during her last regular appearences.
And Kes is not deadweight. And, while maybe Voyager writers didn;t know how to write interesting stories for her, the same can be siaid for other characters like Chakotay, Tuvok, and probaly Harry Kim as well.

The catsuits were just Braga's obsession and showed limited thinking as I see it.
As for writing interesting stories for Kes, the writers actually came up with good and interesting stories for Kes until they all of a sudden lost that ability in the beginning of season 4 for some strange reason.

Well, while it's not Kes - related, Prodigy did fix a few things that were sore spots for fans ever since Voyager finale. So, while it';s improbble, it's not impossibl;e. It's not like Star Trek franchise is dead.

Star Trek is not dead yet but it hasn't been particularily good since Voyager's season 3.
The only thing they seem to be capable of is flogging the TOS horse to death and they aren't doing that good either.

Yeah, she needed to go. To a series with competent showrunners. And Harry needed to join her. Maybe Chakotay, too.

A series like DS9 would have been better for both of them.

Really. The DS9 writers knew what to do with distinctive characters like Kes. I think they could have done wonders with other under-evolved VOY characters, too.

Yes!

For some of us, it's the proverbial Yridian mammoth in the room.

I know that Neelix, Tom, and Harry were honorable men and would not have exploited anyone. And also that Kes had only 9 years, so she would die at half the legal age for humans. But still, when we think of two-year-olds, we think of tricycles and teddy bears.

The whole thing of regarding Kes after a number is limited thinking as I see it.
Maybe the planet had a ten year orbit around the sun.
And as I wrote in a previous post, Kes was about 20 and Neelix about 30. I see nothing wrong with that.

If there was not a link already, I would provide one.

Thanks!

I feel honored!

 

[King Bob!]

And your rude, toxic comments abot Kes are of no interest for me.
I find them insulting, filled of hate and not constructive at all.

Then you're clearly creating a narrative that isn't there. Many, many people feel the character never worked. It is okay. It is also okay to be a fan of the character, it isn't okay to try to create problems out of comments where there were none.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Yes, this obsession with numbers is a really tiresome thing. This only proves that people there have problems with thinking from points of view other than their own.

To these people, I have one thing to say: ask how human relationships would look like from point of view of aliens that mature slower than humans, like Vulcans, Elves or Yoda's species. Would, accoridng to you, relationship between two humans that are 20 and 30 years old (or something like that) be wrong? Or, from another side, would a relationship between 20 years human (who is a full adult) and a 20 years old Vulcan (which, if I remember corrrectly, is a teenager, althought I can be mistaken) be all right just because nnumbers matches)?

As for writing interesting stories for Kes, the writers actually came up with good and interesting stories for Kes until they all of a sudden lost that ability in the beginning of season 4 for some strange reason.

I think the reason is simple. Either it's just an excuse or they were too focused on Seven to think about Kes. Or both.

 

[King Bob!]

I think the reason is simple. Either it's just an excuse or they were too focused on Seven to think about Kes. Or both.

For me, and I'm speaking for myself alone, a Kes episode was like a Lisa episode from The Simpsons or a Meg episode from Family Guy... largely forgettable. For a large portion of the audience, I simply don't think they created an engaging enough character to keep around. They should have axed Garrett Wang at the same time.

 

[Orphalesion]

I wouldn't have made a Kes return episode to begin with. She underwent some sort of ascension in her final episode and, in my opinion, that was all the conclusion the character needed.
One of the problems with the premise of Voyager is that they couldn't very effectively pick up storylines from earlier in the series. Even the Talaxian colony they left Neelix at was a bit of a ass-pull.

Of course if I had my way Kes would have stayed on the show and Kim would have been booted off the show to make room for Seven.

 

[Oddish]

I'll take your word about Prodigy. Like Lower Decks, it holds no interest for me.

Your opinion. And your loss.

The whole thing of regarding Kes after a number is limited thinking as I see it.
Maybe the planet had a ten year orbit around the sun.
And as I wrote in a previous post, Kes was about 20 and Neelix about 30. I see nothing wrong with that.

My head canon is that generally, the universal translator converts time intervals, just like Spanish subtitles turn "10,000 miles" to "16,000 kilometers". And in any case, "Before and After" demonstrated Kes's lifespan was indeed nine years.

Discovery was crap and Enterprise too. Voyager was good for three seasons, before it became The Seven Of Nine Show.

They weren't my favorite shows, but they weren't crap. Before you get on another person's case for toxic remarks, you should check your own.

And it was more "The Seven and EMH Show"

As for writing interesting stories for Kes, the writers actually came up with good and interesting stories for Kes until they all of a sudden lost that ability in the beginning of season 4 for some strange reason.

Kes, far more than most characters, needed an arc, a character journey with a beginning, a middle, and an end. Harry needed one as well. It's no coincidence that he and Kes were the characters worst served by Voyager's endless Reset Button hammering.

Then you're clearly creating a narrative that isn't there. Many, many people feel the character never worked. It is okay. It is also okay to be a fan of the character, it isn't okay to try to create problems out of comments where there were none.

Really. Don't take it personally if another person doesn't like your favorite character.

Take me... I don't get upset when someone tells me they think Harry's 7-year ensignhood made sense. I just rip all their arguments to shreds and enjoy every minute of it. Rather depressing that the moderators effectively rendered the subject off-limits.

Or, from another side, would a relationship between 20 years human (who is a full adult) and a 20 years old Vulcan (which, if I remember corrrectly, is a teenager, althought I can be mistaken) be all right just because nnumbers matches)?

There undoubtedly are species that are long lived enough that a 20-year-old might not even have hit puberty. So yes, it makes a certain amount of sense for a multi-species community to make judgements by degree of physical and emotional maturity, instead of chronological age. But still, as I said, we humans associate Kes's age with very early childhood, so maybe it's a bit of a stretch.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

There undoubtedly are species that are long lived enough that a 20-year-old might not even have hit puberty. So yes, it makes a certain amount of sense for a multi-species community to make judgements by degree of physical and emotional maturity, instead of chronological age. But still, as I said, we humans associate Kes's age with very early childhood, so maybe it's a bit of a stretch.

I guess we differ in that I look at things primarily from "in - universe" point of view and you look at things from "out of universe" point of view.

 

[Oddish]

I guess we differ in that I look at things primarily from "in - universe" point of view and you look at things from "out of universe" point of view.

No, I overall think you're right. But I also recognize what most people think when you say "two-year-old", i.e. small person with limited cognitive skills who is probably still in diapers. So, I can see where the idea of Neelix and Kes dating would bother some viewers.