'Kelvin' Timeline was almost the 'Hobus' Timeline

[fireproof78]

In other words, to them and by their X-Men movieverse-ish standards it's the same continuity, and we're just taking it too seriously.

Exactly.

Or, if we go off of just the evidence presented on screen in the film the fact that Spock Prime doesn't make the efforts to return or repair the timeline indicates that it doesn't need repair. Instead, Spock chooses to remain as sort of a self-imposed punishment due to Vulcan's destruction.

 

[Discofan]

Exactly.

Or, if we go off of just the evidence presented on screen in the film the fact that Spock Prime doesn't make the efforts to return or repair the timeline indicates that it doesn't need repair. Instead, Spock chooses to remain as sort of a self-imposed punishment due to Vulcan's destruction.

I don't know but losing his homeworld should be incentive enough to old Spock to try and repair the timeline if it were possible. Six billion lives is not a simple detail.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't know but losing his homeworld should be incentive enough to old Spock to try and repair the timeline if it were possible. Six billion lives is not a simple detail.

By that argument Sisko should go back and time and prevent the Dominion from contacting the Federation, or perhaps discovering the wormhole in the first place due to the lives lost.

 

[Discofan]

By that argument Sisko should go back and time and prevent the Dominion from contacting the Federation, or perhaps discovering the wormhole in the first place due to the lives lost.

That might not have been a bad idea. Note that in the alternate timeline where Sisko is trapped in a whatever white place, there's no mention of a dominion war whatsoever, info that Sisko had but did nothing with. Maybe Sisko could have realized that he was the Edith Keeler of the 24th century!!

 

[jaime]

I'm trying to figure out how a fictional universe ceases to be.

Simplest answer is that fiction, particularly SF&F depends on suspension of disbelief.
Something like what is being described is clearly breaking that.
Having broken the audiences suspension of disbelief, it means they no longer believe in it, and *snap*.

 

[fireproof78]

Simplest answer is that fiction, particularly SF&F depends on suspension of disbelief.
Something like what is being described is clearly breaking that.
Having broken the audiences suspension of disbelief, it means they no longer believe in it, and *snap*.

Which I do understand, in part, but I'll freely admit that I don't always have these questions as I am watching the film. So, it's a weird balancing act.

On the other hand, this thread is showing a lot of argumentation without a willingness to engage further in to possible alternative answers that could reestablish suspension of disbelief. So, on the one had, I get that when suspension of disbelief is broken then a person is no longer engaged. On the other hand, it strikes me as odd that there is not an apparent willingness to bridge the gap.

At least for me. I know I am extraordinarily odd in that I'm willing to make an effort with a film to make sense, rather than just give up on it.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I think for certain fans the suspension of disbelief was broken merely because of how different ST09 felt in style and characterization. Seeing Kirk act more like a frat boy is probably a step too far for some, so from that point on there's a strong unwillingness to engage with the film on its own merits because they don't like those merits.

Where the film really lost me was at the ending when Kirk and crew smirk as they fire on a defenseless Nero, "you've got it", especially coming off of Spock not agreeing with Kirk's offer of help. At least to me, that's the antithesis of what Trek is about. Contrast that to something like Kruge trying to drag Kirk off the ledge with him, and Kirk has to kick him off. At least in that moment with Kirk there's that sense of frustration and regret that things had to end that way. James Bond can get away with smiling at a terrorist accidentally blowing himself up, but I wouldn't buy it from any version of Kirk because that's not what I want out of Star Trek.

 

[fireproof78]

Where the film really lost me was at the ending when Kirk and crew smirk as they fire on a defenseless Nero, "you've got it", especially coming off of Spock not agreeing with Kirk's offer of help. At least to me, that's the antithesis of what Trek is about.

I can see that, though I personally don't agree. I didn't Kirk as smirking as much as a quiet resignation shifting immediately in to action mode. I know that various people will interpret it differently.

 

[M'Sharak]

Someone should post a screencap of the part where Kirk and crew are smirking. I always seem to miss that bit.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I can see that, though I personally don't agree. I didn't Kirk as smirking as much as a quiet resignation shifting immediately in to action mode. I know that various people will interpret it differently.

It’s all in his delivery of “you’ve got it” coming so quickly after Nero’s refusal, a sense of smugness, likely him taking satisfaction in having to kill the man who boasted about killing his father during their conflict in the Narada. I don’t get much of a quiet resignation, but would have if they at least gave Kirk a brief moment before ordering fire.

 

[Discofan]

I think for certain fans the suspension of disbelief was broken merely because of how different ST09 felt in style and characterization. Seeing Kirk act more like a frat boy is probably a step too far for some, so from that point on there's a strong unwillingness to engage with the film on its own merits because they don't like those merits.

Where the film really lost me was at the ending when Kirk and crew smirk as they fire on a defenseless Nero, "you've got it", especially coming off of Spock not agreeing with Kirk's offer of help. At least to me, that's the antithesis of what Trek is about. Contrast that to something like Kruge trying to drag Kirk off the ledge with him, and Kirk has to kick him off. At least in that moment with Kirk there's that sense of frustration and regret that things had to end that way. James Bond can get away with smiling at a terrorist accidentally blowing himself up, but I wouldn't buy it from any version of Kirk because that's not what I want out of Star Trek.

At the very least, they shouldn't have fired on Nero's ship unless he was firing on them which he wasn't.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I think for certain fans the suspension of disbelief was broken merely because of how different ST09 felt in style and characterization. Seeing Kirk act more like a frat boy is probably a step too far for some, so from that point on there's a strong unwillingness to engage with the film on its own merits because they don't like those merits.

Depends if the Kirk in your head in the "stack of books with legs" of WNMHGB or the "never a boy scout" from WoK. Personally, I think there's more evidence for the latter than the former, but everyone goes with what they first took to heart.

Where the film really lost me was at the ending when Kirk and crew smirk as they fire on a defenseless Nero, "you've got it", especially coming off of Spock not agreeing with Kirk's offer of help. At least to me, that's the antithesis of what Trek is about. Contrast that to something like Kruge trying to drag Kirk off the ledge with him, and Kirk has to kick him off. At least in that moment with Kirk there's that sense of frustration and regret that things had to end that way. James Bond can get away with smiling at a terrorist accidentally blowing himself up, but I wouldn't buy it from any version of Kirk because that's not what I want out of Star Trek.

They offered him help. He said no. They made sure the man who successfully committed genocide once and stated his intention to do so again and again, couldn't do so.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Given that his ship was utterly crippled by a SINGULARITY, I don’t think Nero was posing much of a threat. If you think his genocidal actions warranted in murdering him, okay, fair enough.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Given that his ship was utterly crippled by a SINGULARITY, I don’t think Nero was posing much of a threat. If you think his genocidal actions warranted in murdering him, okay, fair enough.

Sure, let's take the risk of possibly allowing him to escape and cause more chaos. If 6 billion Vulcans isn't enough to render him dangerous enough to kill on sight, what number if dead is?

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Sure, let's take the risk of possibly allowing him to escape and cause more chaos. If 6 billion Vulcans isn't enough to render him dangerous enough to kill on sight, what number if dead is?

Huh? His ship was utterly crippled from the singularity that was created from WITHIN the ship. The Narada was being destroyed from the inside out. The guy was going to die no matter what. That’s why Kirk initially offered assistance because Nero was totally and certainly FUCKED. Escape was not an option.

 

[fireproof78]

It’s all in his delivery of “you’ve got it” coming so quickly after Nero’s refusal, a sense of smugness, likely him taking satisfaction in having to kill the man who boasted about killing his father during their conflict in the Narada. I don’t get much of a quiet resignation, but would have if they at least gave Kirk a brief moment before ordering fire.

I just watched the scene again. Again, mileage will vary but I do not read smugness in his statement or tone. I know I'm biased but it is far more quiet delivery than I would expect in a smug affirmation.

But, I can see that read. I just don't agree.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I just watched the scene again. Again, mileage will vary but I do not read smugness in his statement or tone. I know I'm biased but it is far more quiet delivery than I would expect in a smug affirmation.

But, I can see that read. I just don't agree.

Perfectly fair.

 

[WebLurker]

It’s not, because nobody makes that particular connection onscreen, eg. via the Jellyfish accessing its Vulcan Science Academy database to cross-reference the Hobus sensor readings with those collected by Worf’s shuttle on “stardate 2370”. With all the technobabble in existence, we as the audience couldn’t possibly hope to put those together without Orci’s non-canon, behind-the-scenes thoughts.

Oh, for pete's sake, here:

"Parallels": "But there is a theory in quantum physics that all possibilities that can happen do happen in alternate quantum realities."

Star Trek (2009) (background chatter at Vulcan school): "What is the central assumption of quantum cosmology?"/ "Everything that can happen does happen in equal and parallel universes."

There, connection made directly to the TNG episode in question onscreen, no less. Boom! [mic drop]

 

[Phoenix219]

That doesn't mean they are created by time travel, only that they exist in a "quantum" realm of "possibilities". If it was presented as dimensional travel then no one could complain, but it was blatantly shown as time travel.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

That doesn't mean they are created by time travel, only that they exist in a "quantum" realm of "possibilities". If it was presented as dimensional travel then no one could complain, but it was blatantly shown as time travel.

Face it, man, it’s a parallel universe.