"For any event, there are an infinite number of possible outcomes."
Time travel is an event like any other. Kelvin Universe: Angry future Romulan appears in 2233. Prime Universe: Doesn't.
'Kelvin' Timeline was almost the 'Hobus' Timeline
- Thread starter Tuskin38
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Time travel is an event like any other. Kelvin Universe: Angry future Romulan appears in 2233. Prime Universe: Doesn't.
Those who like time travel "back to the future" style can still assume that quantum mechanics doesn't contradict that and, therefore, kelvin trek is another universe because a black hole was involved (and there are already theories about black holes being access points to different universes).
There is no evidence the creative team had ever wanted to rewrite tos and eliminate prime. They always said the opposite.
I think it was smart. In a way, it works just fine with the merger too, now. Had them rewritten tos with the old time travel device, or through the usual remake, it would probably be the end of this trek now because their version would conflict with TV trek.
But the way it is now, it doesn't conflict. They can co-exist. They created another reality that you can ALWAYS use for different stories. They simply made the trek universe bigger.
There is no conflict between TV trek and the movies right now.
Imagine the black hole having two sides, one is prime and the other is kelvin. The Picard show will make us see what happened in prime after the destruction of Romulus and Spock's disappearance, while the movies give us a look into that "other side" and thus where Spock prime went when he traveled through the black hole.
The reason why Spock prime doesn't go back to his reality is given in the movie: because he makes his mission to help the vulcans of this reality rebuild their world (further because young Spock can be more free to continue his career in starfleet)
Home is relative for him at this point of his life, and trying to get back to his reality would mean having to find a way to create or get to the black hole that can selectively access to his reality. He'd need a technology he doesn't have or cannot use because it might have risks he isn't willing to take. Besides, who is to say he'd WANT to get back? If he has nothing to come back to, it may not be worth it. Maybe he was content ending his life here, to help the vulcans, to see the possibilities...maybe he even got the chance to know his father better through kelvin Sarek.
When he volunteered for that mission to save Romulus it was a suicide mission, he knew he had little chances to come back. The fact he ended up into the kelvin universe and still managed to make himself useful, to have a new purpose, was a plus.
There is no evidence the creative team had ever wanted to rewrite tos and eliminate prime. They always said the opposite.
I think it was smart. In a way, it works just fine with the merger too, now. Had them rewritten tos with the old time travel device, or through the usual remake, it would probably be the end of this trek now because their version would conflict with TV trek.
But the way it is now, it doesn't conflict. They can co-exist. They created another reality that you can ALWAYS use for different stories. They simply made the trek universe bigger.
There is no conflict between TV trek and the movies right now.
Imagine the black hole having two sides, one is prime and the other is kelvin. The Picard show will make us see what happened in prime after the destruction of Romulus and Spock's disappearance, while the movies give us a look into that "other side" and thus where Spock prime went when he traveled through the black hole.
The reason why Spock prime doesn't go back to his reality is given in the movie: because he makes his mission to help the vulcans of this reality rebuild their world (further because young Spock can be more free to continue his career in starfleet)
Home is relative for him at this point of his life, and trying to get back to his reality would mean having to find a way to create or get to the black hole that can selectively access to his reality. He'd need a technology he doesn't have or cannot use because it might have risks he isn't willing to take. Besides, who is to say he'd WANT to get back? If he has nothing to come back to, it may not be worth it. Maybe he was content ending his life here, to help the vulcans, to see the possibilities...maybe he even got the chance to know his father better through kelvin Sarek.
When he volunteered for that mission to save Romulus it was a suicide mission, he knew he had little chances to come back. The fact he ended up into the kelvin universe and still managed to make himself useful, to have a new purpose, was a plus.
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That is entirely possible, but then it was always dimensional travel and never time travel - so it still contradicts itself. I'm not convinced that the "infinite quantum possibilities" could ever mean that there are literally infinite numbers of physical universes coexisting, literally all in existence at the same time. I'm not even sure that the universes in "Parallels" even existed as anything other than "possiblilities" on a quantum level until they actually manifested in our physical world. Then again, I'm not even going to give my opinion on black holes.... i'd probably get ran right outta here... 
The Kelvinverse already squandered almost all of its potential, so hopefully next time they try something other than Prime, its a complete reboot and can avoid most of these issues. Right now the best thing that could happen to it is to get wrapped up as a complete story with a fulfilling ending, that will make the problems of the earlier films less obtrusive in retrospect.
I can't believe no one remembers 10 years ago the very obvious change-in-tune from the producers when the complaints started to get louder, and the whole bit where they were emphasizing its "not your Daddy's Star Trek" and were going to blow up a TOS Connie at the beginning of the movie to make their point. I remember watching it all unfold and thinking how insincere they were being the entire time.
The Kelvinverse already squandered almost all of its potential, so hopefully next time they try something other than Prime, its a complete reboot and can avoid most of these issues. Right now the best thing that could happen to it is to get wrapped up as a complete story with a fulfilling ending, that will make the problems of the earlier films less obtrusive in retrospect.
I can't believe no one remembers 10 years ago the very obvious change-in-tune from the producers when the complaints started to get louder, and the whole bit where they were emphasizing its "not your Daddy's Star Trek" and were going to blow up a TOS Connie at the beginning of the movie to make their point. I remember watching it all unfold and thinking how insincere they were being the entire time.
The timeline rewrite begins at the Kelvin, so if you prevent the disaster, then you are just restoring the original timeline, or at least something 99% similar, but still dooming Romulus. If you stop the Hobus phenomenon, then you save Romulus, and hopefully prevent the timeline from ever being changed in the first place. Kelvin/Prime are literally the same physical space, being re-recorded on with different events.
Nothing needs to be explained,, if you assume someone went back at saved the Kelvin and restored the timeline for Picard to continue in. That wouldn't affect the supernova, so repercussions of the event are still in play.
It doesn't matter if they use "red matter" to time travel, any more than it matters if they slingshot or use the Guardian or a timesuit or anything else. Either way, the cause-and-affect of changing events is the same. The red matter very well could have tunneled into another universe, which could have absolutely achieved all of their "reboot but preserve" goals, and still used Nimoy, and it would have made a ton more logical sense. It would also have made Spock's decision to stay, his OWN choice, maybe referencing that Kirk and his family are gone anyways, and at least in the new universe, the possibilities are endless....
TOS had no problem establishing a reality where everyone was evil or just plain opposite, so why not one where everything is “faster, more intense”? It’s speculative fiction that these things happen for no better reason than “what if”, and you as a writer run with them to make a point (who would Kirk be without his father? Would he sacrifice himself same as Spock did in TWOK?) If you really need technobabble, think red matter; even FC freely used something-or-other to protect the Enterprise from the effects of Borg time travel.
I have no problem withi any of those concepts - so do a parallel universe - Mirror Universe is one, Lazarus Universe is one..... Arrowverse shows have no problem separating universes (Earth numbers) and time travel.... Fringe very clearly kept a distinction..... its not a hard concept.... we like time travel... we like Sliders.... but pick one and use it, and stick to it.... don't do one, and claim its the other. Even if its just a plot device, it needs to be consistantly applied.
But what apparent contradictions do you see in the canon? I only see the following consistent approach: Ambassador Spock came from the most literal reality of Star Trek V (STB), tunneling into “not your father’s Star Trek” which, recasting aside, nobody bothered to show in pure Berman style even in 2233, if only to contrast that with JJ style 25 years later. That’s all.
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I think "Parallels" makes it obvious that you can't destroy timelines, you can only add new ones. For example, there is a timeline where Nero was able to destroy all the planets of the Federation totally unopposed and there is one where one of his lieutenants screwed things up very badly and it resulted in blowing up the ship even before he could attack the Kelvin. Old Spock appeared twenty-five years later in a more or less unchanged universe where he tried to be as inconspicuous as possible...
There is even a timeline where when captain Robeau said:" What gives you the right to attack a Starfleet starship?" Nero said:"You're right nothing gives me that right. I'll let you return to your ship with my apologies, captain!"
Although that last one is of a very low probability.
There is even a timeline where when captain Robeau said:" What gives you the right to attack a Starfleet starship?" Nero said:"You're right nothing gives me that right. I'll let you return to your ship with my apologies, captain!"
Although that last one is of a very low probability.
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Let’s not even bring up “Parallels”, merely stick with onscreen evidence.
But "Parallels" is evidence, as much as anything else.
It’s not, because nobody makes that particular connection onscreen, eg. via the Jellyfish accessing its Vulcan Science Academy database to cross-reference the Hobus sensor readings with those collected by Worf’s shuttle on “stardate 2370”. With all the technobabble in existence, we as the audience couldn’t possibly hope to put those together without Orci’s non-canon, behind-the-scenes thoughts.
I am sure there is a parallel reality where I agree with this.
But what doesn’t follow from canon in this one?
"Canon" is a good servant but a bad master.
It's as much a part of the Trek franchise as anything else. If you only go by ST'09 itself, then it's 100% fine. You're only bothered because it conflicts with (some) other time travel episodes (which are wildly inconsistent)... which aren't ST'09, so by your criteria don't count.
Why? Canon is what the ideal, mass audience sees without all these behind-the-scenes comments fans are trying to reconcile.
I’m not bothered because it’s obvious from the get-go that this is far more than a classic time-travel story, with even 2233 looking (and feeling) very different than you’d expect. It’s time travel combined with reality tunneling, so why should it be hard to accept that the reverent Bermanverse continuity remained in parallel existence? If Pine’s Kirk were to travel back in time, it’s obvious he could alter his own reality, but the Star Wars aspects would be preserved.
That's where we get into the Discovery-style visual continuity thing. The Kelvin looks a lot like the Shenzhou. The Discovery Enterprise looks different to the TOS Enterprise but they're meant to be the same ship and they even flashback to footage from "The Cage" despite the ship, the actors and the Talosian makeup all being different (not entirely unlike Spock seeing the photo of Star Trek V in Beyond)
In other words, to them and by their X-Men movieverse-ish standards it's the same continuity, and we're just taking it too seriously.
Oddly enough, quite a few here remember 10 years ago.
For one thing, I remember that the "not your father's Star Trek" line appeared in exactly one spot — one spot which aired very late in the promo campaign for the 2009 movie, and was seen only on a channel far removed from those ordinarily associated with audiences of SF genre shows and movies. It was aimed at a demographic who very likely hadn't seen Star Trek at all since sometime early in TNG's run.
A single late-campaign spot (did it even air more than once?) on a non-SF (sports?) channel = emphasizing?
Nope. It does not.
Perhaps dropping the "I can't believe no one remembers!!!" bit would be a better approach for you to take here. Less arm-waving, less insinuation that those you're addressing are somehow deficient, more verifiable facts.
Go on; give it a try.
That’s one way of reacting to it; the other is “They cannot possibly mean that Jefferies’ iconic designs have been overwritten with these forever, so it must also be a parallel reality, not just classic time travel, and we’ll keep seeing the old style elsewhere.” The more they change, the more I personally cannot see it as the same sort of time travel you’d get with the slingshot effect.
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