'Kelvin' Timeline was almost the 'Hobus' Timeline

[MakeshiftPython]

Time travel mechanics have always been flexible according to what story was being told. Sometimes there’s the idea of changing time, in others it’s a strict time loop where you can’t change the past or future at all. For ST09’s story it’s about branching off a new timeline parallel with Prime. That was the intention of the filmmakers.

To try to suggest it needs to be “fixed” in order to make sense with the Prime timeline is to suggest you simply don’t like this Kelvin timeline and just want it erased to ease your mind of Prime being “restored”.

Or in the words of The Shat: Get a life!

 

[Rahul]

To try to suggest it needs to be “fixed” in order to make sense with the Prime timeline is to suggest you simply don’t like this Kelvin timeline and just want it erased to ease your mind of Prime being “restored”.

Or in the words of The Shat: Get a life!

Holy Batman, that's a whole lot of flimsy assumptions and junk conclusions for just two sentences!

 

[fireproof78]

I think they do a little more than suggesting the existence of alternate timelines.

Between the Mirror Universe, the alternate universe in the "Alternative Factor" in TOS I think this is a safe conclusion.

And, even if it isn't, TNG temporal mechanics is just as valid of a storytelling device as anything else in Star Trek lore. Given the constant slander against the Kelvin Production team that they "don't get Star Trek" they sure do utilize a lot of Trek tropes.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Holy Batman, that's a whole lot of flimsy assumptions and junk conclusions for just two sentences!

So, I'm right?

 

[Phoenix219]

Alternate universes and time travel resulting in a rewritten timeline are completely different phenomena with different causes and physics. We have seen alternate universes, but with the sole exception of the Kelvinverse, they were completely separate physical bubbles that pre existed and whose origins have no provable connection to time travel. Without fail, we have seen disruptions in the past decimating the present current timelines, with huge stakes to save the universe. Yesterday's enterprise, city on the edge, year of hell, first contact......

We have also seen travel between our universe and the other alternate universes, but never between time-travel creative timelines. The fact that Nimoy's Spock never goes home to me is proof that there is no home for him to go to. The original intent was for the new timeline to replace the old one, but they changed it before release to quell the hardcore fandom response to the destruction of everything that came before. (Originally the Kelvin was supposed to be a TOS Connie, just to drive home the point.) I go with writers original intent, coupled with all of the examples earlier in the series. The two timeline share a common past. Time travel does not create a completely separate physical place that exists concurrent to its original. They don't end up as two universes that have identical histories that happen to exist side by side.

The Kelvin movies, unless wrapped up, to me, from a narrative standpoint, are unfulfilling. I don't hate them and if it was a clean reboot I would be all about their coexistence. As it is now, I just feel like we are watching stories (Dsc, Pic) from a universe that no longer exists.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I'm still not understanding why it's difficult to understand the concept of the Kelvin universe running concurrently with the Prime universe. The whole point was so both timelines wouldn't step on each other's toes. Bad Robot would do whatever they want, CBS would do whatever they want, and there would not be any need of consulting between to keep things aligned.

It's so simple. Had BEYOND not underperformed, it would have been interesting to see the Kelvin timeline thriving at the same time that Prime did. WB does this with their DC film and television divisions.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm trying to figure out how a fictional universe ceases to be.

 

[Phoenix219]

If it is so simple, then why didn't they do a straight reboot? Why did they INSIST on Old Spock, and Nero rewriting the timeline, and changing the future? Blatantly, by their own internal setup and classic Trek time travel rules, they *can not* co-exist! If they are coexisting, and even able to crossover, then it is not a "time travel changed the past" scenario but a "dimensional traveler messed up our universe" scenario. The Kelvinverse claims the former, but acts as if its the latter. Either the Kelvinverse always existed, and there was no real time travel, and they occupy different, parallel universes, or time travel caused the Kelvinverse to exist in place of the Prime Universe by rewriting the timeline of that original, physical universe. The only way they can share the common past of "Enterprise" is if it is the same physical universe, with new events imprinted on it. If this is the case, bye bye Prime.

Just film the Kelvin cast on the Discoprise Bridge, call it Prime and call it a good day.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I would have wanted a total reboot with no time travel shenanigans, but Abrams wanted Nimoy for his film so that’s what we got.

And once again, it’s not rewriting history, it’s branching an alternate timeline. This has been clear for ten years now. You’re just being weirdly stubborn in insisting it isn’t what the filmmakers have clarified numerous times.

 

[Phoenix219]

As per Trek Time Travel, when you save the past, you preserve your future - are there close branches that still exist where the Nazi's won WW2, where the whale probe destroyed Earth, where the Borg took over everything? I'm not being difficult. There is no precedent in Trek history for time travel to create a permanent branch. Its always been a rewrite.

The filmmakers have only insisted on this to save face with old school fans. It was a marketing move that lies in direct constrast with everything shown on screen. They clarify it so we stop bothering them.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

That’s all on you, really. There’s no default time travel rule established for the entire franchise as each story has set its own rules. ST09 set its own for that very film, and you’re seemingly ignoring it out of odd stubbornness.

Besides, if what you believe is true and ST09 “erased” canon, why are we still getting Prime set TV shows? Because both timelines co-exist! That’s the whole point of the time branching, so we can see both play out.

 

[fireproof78]

This is part of Star Trek Time Travel too:

 

[MakeshiftPython]

No, fireproof, that was just one episode, and it doesn't count because there's many more time travel episodes about rewriting history. More importantly, it doesn't help his argument!

 

[Phoenix219]

We are getting Prime TV shows because we are seeing this nonsequentially; We haven't viewed the end of the Kelvin arc that restores the Prime Universe. We are watching shows set in a Universe that technically no longer exists, or will exist again (which would be instantaneously anyways from a 4D perspective) - we just haven't seen the final chapter of a story that existed temporarily and has already ended. Basically, the Voyager finale applied to the JJ crew. Again, every single time time travel has been used to change the past, it wipes out / restores what came before, on a quite regular and consistent basis. There is no precedence for time travel creating a physical new parallel branch, and in fact thinking so destroys the narrative and point of every time travel story that has come before. It leaves the notion that no matter how many times they succeed, they are still leaving a universe behind suffering in ruins, and the victory is practically an illusion that exists only for our protraganists. There is still a world where the Klingons and Federation are in a terrible war; there is still a world wiped out by the whale probe; one decimated by the Borg; one run by Nazi's.... to me that belittles ever sacrifice from every great story before.

A true reboot could very well be a different world in a multiverse, but time travel has *nothing* to do with the multiverse. The worlds seen in "Parallels" could very well exist concurrently, but they were NOT created by time travel.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

We are getting Prime TV shows because we are seeing this nonsequentially; We haven't viewed the end of the Kelvin arc that restores the Prime Universe.

There's nothing to "restore", because both timelines exist. The idea that the Kelvin universe "restores" to Prime is just something you're making up in your head.

Again, every single time time travel has been used to change the past, it wipes out / restores what came before, on a quite regular and consistent basis. There is no precedence for time travel creating a physical new parallel branch, and in fact thinking so destroys the narrative and point of every time travel story that has come before. It leaves the notion that no matter how many times they succeed, they are still leaving a universe behind suffering in ruins, and the victory is practically an illusion that exists only for our protraganists. There is still a world where the Klingons and Federation are in a terrible war; there is still a world wiped out by the whale probe; one decimated by the Borg; one run by Nazi's.... to me that belittles ever sacrifice from every great story before.

Except the timeline branch off does not apply to those stories you bring up because that was not part of their narrative. Time travel rules change in Star Trek because IT'S A FICTIONAL UNIVERSE.

I'm not even that big of a fan of ST09 and wish they had done a hard reboot of Trek instead of applying time travel silliness, but I accept the conceit of the branch off because that was the story they told. If there were to be a Kelvin film that dealt with rewriting history that's perfectly valid for that story and the branch off concept wouldn't apply unless brought up.

 

[Phoenix219]

Either it applies or it doesn't - you can't change the mechanics of something in an ongoing work with ongoing continuity. There has always been a distinct difference between physical alternate universe and timeline rewrite and both have been unbelievably consistant. The in-story narrative never once implies that the Prime Universe still exists - Nimoy and Nero being relics from a future that no longer exists, being the lynchpins of the rewrite. The producers *changed their intent for commercial purposes only* - they wanted people to stop complaining that they had destroyed 40+ years of Trek at that point. The whole point was to wipe the slate clean to start anew without the continuity.

There's actually still a second option, which is Discovery being the reboot/different physical universe that isn't actually connected to the original tapestry, while Kelvinverse is the rewrite of the physical universe we had been watching since the 60s.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Either it applies or it doesn't - you can't change the mechanics of something in an ongoing work with ongoing continuity.

Yes you can, because it's a... FICTIONAL UNIVERSE, where the rules change at the whims of each writer because they're more concerned about telling a particular story than wondering if it fits in with the ongoing continuity.

The producers *changed their intent for commercial purposes only* - they wanted people to stop complaining that they had destroyed 40+ years of Trek at that point. The whole point was to wipe the slate clean to start anew without the continuity.

Where do you get that the producers "originally intended" to erase the timeline with ST09? Is that just something you made up?

 

[F. King Daniel]

The worlds seen in "Parallels" could very well exist concurrently, but they were NOT created by time travel.

Data's exact words are "any event". Time travel is an event.

 

[Rahul]

I'm still not understanding why it's difficult to understand the concept of the Kelvin universe running concurrently with the Prime universe.

It's not difficult to understand. It's just stupid.

Nobody critisizing it doesn't understand it. Everybody critisizing it thinks it's a stupid idea. Because it is. Because it's incoherent. It's as stupid as everytime somebody beams through shields. If your fictional universe has clear story rules, follow them. Otherwise characters are just meat puppets for the writers, instead of fleshed out characters you can empathize with. That's just bad storytelling.

And just FYI - the parallel timelines in "parallels" had jack shit to do with time travel.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

Imagine telling Brannon Braga he cannot invent brention particles originating from a subspace confluence which cause everyone to jump three days forward and seven back… three days forward and seven back… but without affecting anything in the middle because that’s his story of the week.

It’s just what brention particles would do, and now you simply have this thing called red matter which did something to branch off an alternate reality where everything is more like Star Wars, where you can do classic time travel but only within that setting. Star Trek by technobabble, nothing revolutionary about it.