'Kelvin' Timeline was almost the 'Hobus' Timeline

[Boris Skrbic]

But they didn’t get it wrong because not only were many actors recast for the first time, but JJ wanted it more like Star Wars even in 2233. He didn’t hire Herman Zimmerman or Mike Okuda or others to help out with that portion of his film. I as a viewer can see that and realize that even if Nero were stopped, we’d just see something like TOS in JJ style, just as we can now imagine it in DSC style.

Therefore, I don’t need an onscreen explanation for why Spock can never go back to the reality of his Star Trek V cast photo: it’s no longer a “simple” matter of classic time travel, and the red matter probably has something to do with it, who knows? Also, while non-canon, the IDW Ongoing comics have Spock Prime musing on differences that couldn’t by explained by Nero’s influence, while the rest of the Prime crew is also drawn in TOS style, rather than keep the recast likenesses on the theory that the comic is an Abramsverse tie-in emphasizing a “mere” timeline alteration.

 

[F. King Daniel]

He didn’t hire Herman Zimmerman or Mike Okuda or others to help out with that portion of his film

Mike Okuda did a little uncredited work on ST'09 (USS Kelvin computer displays, I think?)

 

[Boris Skrbic]

Mike Okuda did a little uncredited work on ST'09 (USS Kelvin computer displays, I think?)

I don’t know, but my point is that if they’d wanted to emphasize the supposed “everything post-2233.04 is Nero’s fault” idea, the producers could’ve put in the effort to make the 2233 look and feel closer to something between ENT and TOS (they did nicely extrapolate Star Wars 30 years later). Since 2233 doesn’t match expectations while Star Trek V looks like Star Trek V, I don’t really need an explanation to know that the Hobus event can’t be prevented: all you can do is prevent the next potential one, which is something that Kelvin Spock could be interested in by 2387.

 

[Rahul]

But they didn’t get it wrong because not only were many actors recast for the first time, but JJ wanted it more like Star Wars even in 2233. He didn’t hire Herman Zimmerman or Mike Okuda or others to help out with that portion of his film. I as a viewer can see that and realize that even if Nero were stopped, we’d just see something like TOS in JJ style, just as we can now imagine it in DSC style.

Therefore, I don’t need an onscreen explanation for why Spock can never go back to the reality of his Star Trek V cast photo: it’s no longer a “simple” matter of classic time travel, and the red matter probably has something to do with it, who knows? Also, while non-canon, the IDW Ongoing comics have Spock Prime musing on differences that couldn’t by explained by Nero’s influence, while the rest of the Prime crew is also drawn in TOS style, rather than keep the recast likenesses on the theory that the comic is an Abramsverse tie-in emphasizing a “mere” timeline alteration.

To be honest, I think it was a good idea to get new heads involved in all aspects of the film. I prefer Ryan Churchs' entirely new and funky version of the Enterprise a 1000x times over John Eaves Discovery-version of the Enterprise. Don't get me wrong - I adore John Eaves work. But at this point, his style is very known, and I want a breath of fresh air.

 

[WebLurker]

I find it kind of amusing that co-writer and co-producer of ST'09 Aklex Kurtzman treats time travel in the "traditional" Trek manner in Discovery after insisting that time travel split off new timelines in 2009 publicity tours.

(and in the rumoured plot for Bob Orci's unmade ST3, it was about a time travel device which could reset the timeline... and he was the other co-writer/producer of ST'09)

I guess the rules of time travel in Trek still change like socks.

We've seen in the franchise before that not all travels have the same rules, whether it be because of special circumstances or otherwise. Makes sense that there could be an exception here.

"Parallels" (TNG) is all you need, though, for the prime timeline to survive the Horbus incident; in one quantum reality, the Jellyfish and Narada were dumped in the past, creating the Kelvin timeline, and in another, they were weren't (lost in transit or whatever you want to think), creating the continuation of the prime universe.

 

[fireproof78]

We've seen in the franchise before that not all travels have the same rules, whether it be because of special circumstances or otherwise. Makes sense that there could be an exception here.

"Parallels" (TNG) is all you need, though, for the prime timeline to survive the Horbus incident; in one quantum reality, the Jellyfish and Narada were dumped in the past, creating the Kelvin timeline, and in another, they were weren't (lost in transit or whatever you want to think), creating the continuation of the prime universe.

Exactly.

 

[Smellmet]

Except Picard picks up after the Hobus supernova and destruction of Romulus, and deals with the repercussions in the Prime universe. It's not dropped for forgotten, although I doubt it'll ever be explained.

And old Spock retains memories of his experiences in the 'prime' timeline. His presence in ST09 means these events happened regardless.

It's probably best not to overthink time travel plot holes too much, they can never be truly resolved.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

And old Spock retains memories of his experiences in the 'prime' timeline. His presence in ST09 means these events happened regardless.

It's probably best not to overthink time travel plot holes too much, they can never be truly resolved.

Why would it be a plot hole that the Kelvin Timeline doesn’t erase the Prime Timeline? It was said many times that the KT is an alternate reality as well as timeline. Imagine if Worf in “Parallels” didn’t just return to the ship but also traveled back in time, then kept experiencing different versions of his time-travel experience, before ultimately returning to the original one followed by a slingshot effect to get back. It’s a two-pronged concept.

 

[Smellmet]

Why would it be a plot hole that the Kelvin Timeline doesn’t erase the Prime Timeline? It was said many times that the KT is an alternate reality as well as timeline. Imagine if Worf in “Parallels” didn’t just return to the ship but also traveled back in time, then kept experiencing different versions of his time-travel experience, before ultimately returning to the original one followed by a slingshot effect to get back. It’s a two-pronged concept.

It's not a plot hole to me but other people see it that way. Spocks presence with his memories of his lifetime suggests to me that the prime timeline exists and the kelvin one is a new separate timeline and didnt erase the prime one.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

It's not a plot hole to me but other people see it that way. Spocks presence with his memories of his lifetime suggests to me that the prime timeline exists and the kelvin one is a new separate timeline and didnt erase the prime one.

The memories aren’t evidence by themselves since McCoy saving Edith Keeler didn’t affect the landing party, and of course the Borg assimilating Earth didn’t affect the Enterprise-E (protected by technobabble). Nobody in the Kelvin Timeline made contact with the Prime Timeline, so it’s not like they could understand the issues and explain them to the viewer.

(I’ll admit that a guest appearance by Picard “In the Prime Timeline…” might’ve clarified the situation, but on the other hand one would have to be shut off from fandom to believe that history post-2233.04 was overwritten. It’s not like Orci hasn’t been extremely available to clarify that and many other points about the story.)

 

[Rahul]

The thing is, TNG's "Parallels" is really the only episode in the entirety of Star Trek that suggests this many alternate timelines this close to each other. Of course alternate universes have always existed in Star Trek, but until then, the "Mirror" one had been the "closest" one. And "Parallels" relied entirely on a physics concept that was very popular in the 90s, but since than has been proven to be wrong when Hawkins retracted his paper.

They could have easily fixed it by including a single line (saying the Jellyfish & Narada travelled not only through time, but also dimensions, to end up in the Kelvin verse). But as is, it clearly clashes with Trek's "traditional" time travel with overwriting history (like "Year of Hell", or DS9's "Past Tense")

 

[WebLurker]

The thing is, TNG's "Parallels" is really the only episode in the entirety of Star Trek that suggests this many alternate timelines this close to each other. Of course alternate universes have always existed in Star Trek, but until then, the "Mirror" one had been the "closest" one. And "Parallels" relied entirely on a physics concept that was very popular in the 90s, but since than has been proven to be wrong when Hawkins retracted his paper.

Star Trek science and real science have never always matched. So, one episode says it, that's enough.

They could have easily fixed it by including a single line (saying the Jellyfish & Narada travelled not only through time, but also dimensions, to end up in the Kelvin verse). But as is, it clearly clashes with Trek's "traditional" time travel with overwriting history (like "Year of Hell", or DS9's "Past Tense")

Thing is, the quantum realities and time travel have always been different "sciences" (even if there is some overlap, like how the Defiant wound up in the past of the mirror universe), so they're not intertwined by default, but by the nature of how everything happens in another quantum reality. So, yeah, the Kelvin timeline coexists with the prime one, but probably more a quantum diverge, where in one, the time travel was successful and overwrote history while in another they didn't reach the destination, so preserving the original timeline.

(No matter how you slice it, "Parallels" does prove that the prime universe, at least as it existed from TOS to ENT, still exists "as is" in the multiverse. So, it's less of a question of if the Kelvin timeline overwrote it at all, but more how do the quantum realities and time travel interact with each other.)

 

[fireproof78]

They could have easily fixed it by including a single line (saying the Jellyfish & Narada travelled not only through time, but also dimensions, to end up in the Kelvin verse). But as is, it clearly clashes with Trek's "traditional" time travel with overwriting history (like "Year of Hell", or DS9's "Past Tense")

It really doesn't need to be fixed, though. If we are using "Star Trek science" (and we are) then Parallels is as much relevant as any other time travel story.

 

[Malaika]

The question is was there a Michael Burnham in the Kelvin Universe? Were there a Red Angel, and an out of control Control in the Kelvin timeline? How was the mirror universe impacted when Nero attacked the Kelvin? When he destroyed Vulcan?

She likely exists there too but is she Spock's adopted sister? Probably not. Maybe her parents didn't 'die'. From a writing perspective, certainly not because the backstory they had in mind for Spock as a child, and thus his human/vulcan conflict, was inspired by DC Fontana's work... and she was all about Spock being an only child of Sarek and his conflict being just about his parents.

Discovery accidentally (further) explains why this Spock is more balanced about his human/vulcan heritage, and he is more honest about his feelings . You could suppose that he never had a human sister creating the trauma that affected discovery (thus prime) Spock, and thus made him want to be just vulcan (though the season finale messed up that Spock a bit and now it seems Nimoy's version had an involution). Kelvin Spock is defensive about his human side because kelvin Amanda was a much stronger influence on him and in loving her, he could never really feel so ashamed about his human side, to begin with. He has the conflict still because he is a child of two worlds still, and vulcans and his dad kept on messing up with him. But I suspect this guy knew the whole 'vulcans have no feelings you only get those from your human mom' was bs before his father even admitted that. In either case, a Michael doesn't fit in the story of this Spock, not the way it happened in Discovery.

IMO, the red angel made the Discovery's reality an alternate one too but the characters might never know that. They might actually be into a more ambiguous situation than the kelvin movies as it's assumed it's prime because the creative team says that, but the characters in the story cannot be sure.

The mirror universe was impacted too as the kelvin reality has its own mirror verse, as well as other parallel realities that share similarities with it. The comics developed this aspect.
I imagine the other side of the black hole could be the access point to a different universe (the kelvin one) that had its own bing bang etc. This means, because of a paradox, (time not really existing in the universe as a linear thing, thus the way we perceive it) it isn't just the events after the kelvin accident that were affected by Nero. The past of this universe can have, and most likely has, differences too.

It even comes with a fold-out poster thing explaining the timeline divergence.

Oh. Someone should gift that to Tarantino.

 

[Phoenix219]

The USS Kelvin - the ship design, the crew (Faran Tahir as Captain! Chris Hemsworth as Kirks' dad! A real alien alien!) was by far the absolute best thing from these rebooted moves...

...hell, what would I give for a movie trilogy that follows the USS Kelvin??

Fix the timeline, make the crew of the Kelvin equally Heroic, with Pine, etc giving up their existance to fix the timeline - let the Kelvin crew REMEMBER IT ALL - let it be part of the lessons George gives Jimmy - and launch the next movie with the Kelvin crew.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Fix the timeline, make the crew of the Kelvin equally Heroic, with Pine, etc giving up their existance to fix the timeline - let the Kelvin crew REMEMBER IT ALL - let it be part of the lessons George gives Jimmy - and launch the next movie with the Kelvin crew.

That they've made 2 seasons of Disco and 1 of Picard should conclusively prove that, whatever the in-universe reasons, nothing needs "fixing"?

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I do like the idea that the Kelvin crew basically sacrifices themselves, but I would end it with the cast finding themselves in an altered timeline of the Kelvin universe where Nero’s actions no longer happened but they retain their memories like Wolverine in DAYS OF FUTURE PAST. To clarify, they wouldn’t be in the Prime timeline but rather just a happier version of Kelvin, much like how “Yesterday’s Enterprise” was about changing history instead of branching off a new reality. Pine’s Kirk receives a message, it’s his father alive and well.

 

[Phoenix219]

This would end the timeline splinter and let the reboot movies be an actual arc in a trek viewing. It would wrap itself up so disc and Picard can happen. Kirk and company wouldn't remember anything, but the Kelvin crew would, and it could continue on in the Prime timeline. Cue Pine and company on the Discoprise. I would prefer straight TOS but it would never happen.

The main point would be to get a movie or show on the Kelvin with its 09 crew.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I’m perfectly fine with Kelvin existing in parallel with Prime.

 

[Discofan]

The thing is, TNG's "Parallels" is really the only episode in the entirety of Star Trek that suggests this many alternate timelines this close to each other. Of course alternate universes have always existed in Star Trek, but until then, the "Mirror" one had been the "closest" one. And "Parallels" relied entirely on a physics concept that was very popular in the 90s, but since than has been proven to be wrong when Hawkins retracted his paper.

They could have easily fixed it by including a single line (saying the Jellyfish & Narada travelled not only through time, but also dimensions, to end up in the Kelvin verse). But as is, it clearly clashes with Trek's "traditional" time travel with overwriting history (like "Year of Hell", or DS9's "Past Tense")

I think they do a little more than suggesting the existence of alternate timelines.