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Kelvin Timeline all but confirmed

I'm not keen on the rank detailing, but it's not a major issue for me.

I'm still confused as to why the tiny, unnoticable details is so incredibly unnoticable and unreadable.... when all of us noticed it in the first place?
 
I'm not keen on the rank detailing, but it's not a major issue for me.

I'm still confused as to why the tiny, unnoticable details is so incredibly unnoticable and unreadable.... when all of us noticed it in the first place?
I didn't until TrekMovie.com published it's analysis.
 
I'm still confused as to why the tiny, unnoticable details is so incredibly unnoticable and unreadable.... when all of us noticed it in the first place?

We've already seen detailed closeups.

If we had just been dropped straight into the show without ever seeing preview images, it would be rather unlikely that anyone would have noticed those tiny rank pips.
 
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Until proven otherwise, I'll take the producers at their word that it is the Prime timeline. However, it almost sounds to me like Kurtzman is hinting at excursions into some of the other timelines as part of the overall story. A Prime ship and crew being drawn into some of the other timelines/universes as part of the main story might be an interesting plot point.

Either way, I'm looking forward to it!
 
But is that 10 years going to be literally or conceptually? 10 years before Kirk,Spock and the Enterprise could simply be 10 years before another version of Kirk,Spock and the Enterprise. Kelvin Universe had those things as well and it's not considered to be part of the prime universe.

I'm sure the show is going to feel very respectful to what has come before but that doesn't mean it won't also feel separate from it as well, to point were it won't really fit if we want to pretend it's all happening in the same universe which is really the only thing at stake in these canon arguments.

Are we going to be able to pretend their is a connection or are we going to have to pretend it's a new universe like the Kelvin Universe. It was easier to pretend with the Berman era stuff because you had tons of crossovers in both tech and characters and ships and writers. This will be more of a stretch to buy into and it still might not be enough.

Jason


Dude, they have stated this a number of times. Its set in the same universe as the 1966 TOS. Its not kelvin, its not a new timeline, its the prime timeline with an updated modernized look. Some of you guys are just going to have to accept this fact.
 
Working as a writer on a prexisting show is precisely that. Work for hire, set rules. Star Trek is Star Trek..
Okay. But what is Star Trek? And be careful how you answer because, with any definition you give, I'm pretty confident--in the 700+ hours of Trek--I can find one that breaks it.

.if you turn up and try to write game of thrones because you don't like space ships, you aren't doing the job you are hired for.
Unless the job I'm hired for is to come up with ideas for a new Star Trek series and I pitch a show about pre-warp, Feudal Klingons and their constant in-fighting between houses in the vein of Game of Thrones.

There are always rules...be internally consistent or you lose your audience, be aware of your audience or lose the rating or the time slot, be aware of the characters on the show or you can lose your job....
Until your show/film series/whatever starts getting criticized for being safe, homogenized mediocrity.

And what "audience" are we talking about exactly? This thread is evidence that there's no such thing as a unified audience whose tastes and idea of what a product is supposed to be are all in perfect alignment.

it is not an act of pure creation, because you are not the creator or the originator.
If you create something, even under a proprietary trademark or license, you are the true/pure creator and originator. That's why we have credits.

If I paint the last supper, and it is lacking in disciples or Jesus, or symbolic representations thereof....then it's not the last supper is it?
And here's the problem: what exactly constitutes a symbolic representation? The possibilities are just about infinite.

I have heard many an argument against rules in art, in many forms, and usually it's not from the creatively strong people. The creatively strong know how to work with the rules, or at the very least, earn the right to break them by showing they know them.
Pretentious bullshit. Really, look no further than the last 60 years of "alternative" popular music. Or the recent boom in the indie gaming industry.

This is Trek, not a creator owned original work on SYFY. (And I like those just fine.)
All created work is original. If it isn't, than it isn't created work. It's plagiarized work. Ownership is a different matter and one beyond the scope of this thread. But it too, at least within the ground of Star Trek has been consistently inconsistent.

Having someone say 'no' also prevents a tendency towards a bad kind of excess, and is a criticism you see come up time and time again...typically with creators now so big that no one does say no....George Lucas on the prequels, Anne Rice on pretty much everything post Memnoch, any time Ridley Scott makes a sequel to anything, and sometime just spiritual sequels...
.These criticisms pertain to the quality of a work and not the validity of its creation. Those two things are often confused, but they are not the same thing.

The reverse side of that coin is when someone says "It's good, but it's not Star Trek." It's an extremely presumptive and audacious thing to say and it annoys the fuck out of me.

sometimes 'no' or 'you cant' can prevent horrible mistakes.
No such thing as a "horrible" mistake. And mistakes are part of the creative process. The fact you don't seem to understand that might be the crux of the issue.

Like painting acrylic over oil...sometimes there's a reason you just don't do things.
And yet I can almost guarantee you there's a painting in a gallery out there somewhere where the artists used the crackly mess to great effect.

A young painter might try this once only to have it end in disaster. It would certainly be a memorable experience One she would learn from. On the other hand, she might look at her messy canvas and wonder what might happen if she did it broken layers, leaving months of drying time in between Perhaps breaking the oil up with a knife, sort of like a sidewalk--allowing it to harden and bleed throw where she wants it. After some trial and error, she might come up with something wonderful. Or just more messy goo. Either way, it's her act of creation. And it wouldn't happen had someone told her "No. You can't do that."

Similarly, I bet half the trendy chefs across the world all have a favorite dish that mixes two ingredients that "shouldn't be mixed together" and go against all conventional culinary wisdom. I bet you most of them stumbled upon this deliciousness when their parents let them run amok in the kitchen as youngsters.

I think the perfect example of this practice is a guy like Brannon. He threw all this crazy shit at the wall, over and over and Rick never told him to stop or no or can't. Sometimes it worked: Blowing up the Enterprise over and over and then Fraiser. Sometimes I didn't: Hashtag lizards. Point is Rick still let him keep trying.

And certainly there were rules. There are always rules. But the issue is how and when they become intrusive. I can assure you, Braga wasn't worried about canon when he was pitching Lizard Rob and Kate Plus Eight.

All shows have sets of rules. The "show bible" as its usually called. However, most show-runners try to keep the bibles as small or simple as possible.

If you were to go an ask a group of staff writers to choose between a show with a few pages or a big-ass tome (given all other variables being equal), they'd almost always choose the former.

Think of it like the "rules" or defining aspects of a show are each a circle on a Venn diagram. Ideally, you'd like an idea to set within as much of the intersection as possible. However, a good production staff with accept an idea--provided its of good quality and marketable--even if it only sits within one of those outlying circles.

The problem with canon though, is it adds circles upon circles to the diagram. And it's completely unnecessary.

The thing with canon is its an artificial construct, even in real life. To chart the "canon" of humanity would be impossible because it's so muddled by preconception and bias. So why does a TV show need to be held to such a standard?

Even the concept of self or "head" canon shows that it's different for everyone, such that it's potentially infinite. To that end, it has no real weight. Because each person only remembers certain episodes or plot points, even sometimes falsely remembering something. Some people choose to ignore certain things, or accept parts of the "soft canon."

Even if there was a special CBS custodian of all things Star Trek canon, what bits does he choose to accept and reject, especially in cases of contradictory elements (of which, there are many)?

And having said custodian sit in the writers room squelching ideas as they crop up is suffocating creativity at its core.
 
Dude, they have stated this a number of times. Its set in the same universe as the 1966 TOS. Its not kelvin, its not a new timeline, its the prime timeline with an updated modernized look. Some of you guys are just going to have to accept this fact.

I don't know. He says, A timeline which seems to be vague. Also lets not forget the Kelvin Universe also can be argued was part of he Prime Universe as well since it was Spock and the Romulans going back in time that created that universe.

I think it kind of comes down to what the writers consider the prime universe to be. Their definition might be different from ours. Maybe it's nothing more than working in some references to the old shows. The idea of exploring advenue's we aren't familiar with does make it seem possible to be prime but to really feel like prime I do think they will need to somehow acknowledge the look of "TOS."
They can play it as a joke that also doubles as canon like Worf's ,explanation of the Klingons in "Trials and Tribblations" or find ways of inserting old 60's looking tech into the show, somehow. Maybe show that some people in Starfleet are already wearing uniforms that look like the "TOS" uniforms.

Jason
 
I think it kind of comes down to what the writers consider the prime universe to be.
I think the writers "consider" it to be exactly as Dennis stated way at the beginning of the thread:

It's not the Prime timeline.

It's not the Kelvin timeline.

It's just another version of Star Trek.
Anything beyond that, especially if there really is someone in the writers' room with them dictating what is and is not, then it will most assuredly become a point of contention and people will start quitting.
 
I think the writers "consider" it to be exactly as Dennis stated way at the beginning of the thread:


Anything beyond that, especially if there really is someone in the writers' room with them dictating what is and is not, then it will most assuredly become a point of contention and people will start quitting.

I agree with that. To me though that is basically the same thing as a third universe and the only question is will it be something they just go with or will they create some in universe explantion for any changes like Spock/Romulans going back in time to create the Kelvin Universe.

Jason
 
I don't know. He says, A timeline which seems to be vague. Also lets not forget the Kelvin Universe also can be argued was part of he Prime Universe as well since it was Spock and the Romulans going back in time that created that universe.

I think it kind of comes down to what the writers consider the prime universe to be. Their definition might be different from ours. Maybe it's nothing more than working in some references to the old shows. The idea of exploring advenue's we aren't familiar with does make it seem possible to be prime but to really feel like prime I do think they will need to somehow acknowledge the look of "TOS."
They can play it as a joke that also doubles as canon like Worf's ,explanation of the Klingons in "Trials and Tribblations" or find ways of inserting old 60's looking tech into the show, somehow. Maybe show that some people in Starfleet are already wearing uniforms that look like the "TOS" uniforms.

Jason


No, they have staed this is the same timeline as the 1966 TOS. Its prime, they have stated that a half a dozen ways.

You can keep lying to yourself, but that will not change reality.
 
You seem awfully eager to try and quell any dissention. If its "Prime" and you are happy, why are you down here with us mere simpletons?


Man, they have outright stated its the very same setting as TOS, set 10 years before the 1966 series. There is no debate at this point. They have stated its prime, some folks just can't deal with reality.
 
Man, they have outright stated its the very same setting as TOS, set 10 years before the 1966 series. There is no debate at this point. They have stated its prime, some folks just can't deal with reality.

You didn't answer the question. Why does it bother you that people have a different interpretation of what is going on?

It's entertainment.
 
You didn't answer the question. Why does it bother you that people have a different interpretation of what is going on?

It's entertainment.


Because they are warping reality and I am tired of the childish edition warring. We, after 10 years are getting a new Trek show and the folks wanting it to fail because it does not look like a dated fan film annoy me. They have been told its prime, point blank told and they act like we don't know yet. This is lying.

Stop lying and accept reality.
 
No, they have staed this is the same timeline as the 1966 TOS. Its prime, they have stated that a half a dozen ways.

You can keep lying to yourself, but that will not change reality.

Star Trek though is a fictional show so things like Prime universe or Kelvin Universe can be seen a subjective thing. In the end everything basically becomes head canon. Kind of like how the "TOS" cartoon counts as canon or doesn't, depending on who you ask.

For me it will simply come down to how well they make me feel it is connected. Some in-universe explanations for some of the different look would be one way of doing it.

The better way is if they had did a show a little farther back from "TOS" or after "TOS" but before "TNG" or after "Voyager" but they didn't do that. To me the 10- year gap is to short for me to totally buy into the difference in look without some in-universe explanation and even then I might not buy it.

Of course for me if the show is good, which I expect it will be is that all this canon stuff won't impact me beyond how I fit in when I go with my Trek marathons. If I see it as canon I will watch after "Enterprise" but before "TOS" if not I might watch it after I watch everthing else or before I watch everything else.

Plus it means that anything Sarek for example does in the show won't have any impact on how I view any of the actions of him in the prime universe or will impact my views if the show does feel connected.

Jason
 
We, after 10 years are getting a new Trek show and the folks wanting it to fail because it does not look like a dated fan film annoy me.

You will have to point me to the posts of people that are wanting it to fail. Seriously, is people not buying that it is the Prime timeline somehow equate to folks wanting it to fail, to you? :wtf:

I am someone that doesn't think it is Prime, yet plan to subscribe and watch the show. I've said so on numerous occasions.
 
Sigh, You guys can keep trying to change reality. It will not change it, Discovery is prime, its done. You need to accept this and stop lying to yourself. If you want to be delusional about it, Nothing I and clearly the people who created the who and own trek, say will ever make you accept reality.
 
Sigh, You guys can keep trying to change reality. It will not change it, Discovery is prime, its done. You need to accept this and stop lying to yourself. If you want to be delusional about it, Nothing I and clearly the people who created the who and own trek, say will ever make you accept reality.

Once again, what does it really matter to you how others interpret the show?

If you're right, you can pat yourself on the back. Maybe take yourself to dinner and a show!
 
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Because they are warping reality and I am tired of the childish edition warring. We, after 10 years are getting a new Trek show and the folks wanting it to fail because it does not look like a dated fan film annoy me. They have been told its prime, point blank told and they act like we don't know yet. This is lying.

Stop lying and accept reality.

Who wants it to fail? I think the show is going to be good. Why is their a asumption that a third universe must mean it has to be bad? The new "Battlestar Galatica" had nothing to do with the old show and it was great!

Also nobody expected the show to look like it was created in the 60's but instead make it look like a show that took the basic concepts of that setting and updated it with modern techniques. That transporter room we saw is actually a good example of doing that. Looks both old,new and unique at the same time.

Jason
 
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