Kelvin Timeline all but confirmed

[CommanderRaytas]

Well, to me, if it's got good characterisation, it stops being mindless. Michael Bay movies are mindless. The Kelvin movies actually have something to say. If you argue like that, you have to say that everyone's darling (decidedly not mine), TWOK, is pretty dumb for a Trek film, as is First Contact. This isn't meant to devolve into a discussion about the merits of any movie, since there's no accounting for taste, but to me, none of these more action-oriented films are mindless and dumb. Some of the slower ones, like Insurrection, are way stupider than ST 09 and STID. So, to bring this around to the topic at hand again, what would be the big deal if Discovery were set in the Kelvin continuity? The Prime Timeline has as much dumb bullshit in it, probably more because it's so darned huge.

That being said, I know it's supposed to be in the Prime one.

 

[cultcross]

Totally agree. The presence of lots of action does not make them automatically mindless, and First Contact is probably the best argument against that view. What was arguably the most action orientated of the movies up to that point also contains a beautiful story of human progress and redemption, and two of the strongest guest characters in a Trek movie. I have been more emotionally invested in nuTrek than I was in almost any part of Berman Trek after that movie.

 

[Tosk]

Action does not equal mindlessness, just as satisfying characterization does not equal good storytelling.

 

[DarthPipes]

With respect, that is unreasonable. No company would. Knowing that, it is simply unreasonable to expect that.

Agreed.

 

[Dukhat]

@Everyone

Just to clear something up, not everyone has suggested the Kelvin exists in both timelines - Simon Pegg famously opined when writing Star Trek: Beyond that the quantum singularity had caused changes back throughout history, perhaps appearing at various junctures going back thousands of years, making the Kelvin verse a genuinely new parallel universe - this was also the attitude taken by Mike Okuda for the latest encyclopedia unless I'm mistaken.

This of course doesn't clear the issue up, but it's worth mentioning because a few people have said that the Kelvin definatly exists in both universes - actually, as usual, we just don't know, until one appears on screen in the Prime Timeline.

Pegg was only a co-writer for one film. Unless what he said is canonically seen or mentioned on screen, then his idea is free to be contradicted.

And honestly, if the timeline was changed in both directions, then what was the point of even having Prime Spock and Nero change the timeline in the first place to create the Kelvin Universe? They might as well have just made a complete reboot then.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

To get back on the subject, for me personally Discovery definitely looks like and is a sequel series to Enterprise.

Not that it clears things up a lot. Some people believe that ENT is a Prime universe show but some claim that ENT is really a Kelvin timeline series.

 

[Tuskin38]

CBS Believes Enterprise is Prime Timeline.

If the production company behind it says its Prime Timeline, it is Prime Timeline, at least until someone comes up with a good reason why it isn't and pitches it to them and accepts it.

 

[captainkirk]

Pegg was only a co-writer for one film. Unless what he said is canonically seen or mentioned on screen, then his idea is free to be contradicted.

Just as Fuller saying DSC is Prime isn't canon unless it's on-screen.

And honestly, if the timeline was changed in both directions, then what was the point of even having Prime Spock and Nero change the timeline in the first place to create the Kelvin Universe? They might as well have just made a complete reboot then.

Well I had a long, strange theory about that. Time travel in Star Trek usually follows the Back to the Future rules of being able to change your own history, rather than the ST09 rules of splitting off into a new universe. So perhaps only some methods of time travel, such as going through a black hole, create a new universe. And so in the new Kelvin-timeline, events like Tomorrow is Yesterday don't happen, and so history is altered before Nero even shows up. Brain hurting, I know. But when does time travel make sense?

 

[fireproof78]

Dude, I cannot be the only person who thinks that the nuTrek movies aren't just mindless action. There's so much awesome character growth going on in there, there's a bunch of nice themes...I really love them.

Well, me and Chris Stuckmann, anyway. XD

You're not.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

To get back on the subject, for me personally Discovery definitely looks like and is a sequel series to Enterprise.

Not that it clears things up a lot. Some people believe that ENT is a Prime universe show but some claim that ENT is really a Kelvin timeline series.

CBS Believes Enterprise is Prime Timeline.

If the production company behind it says its Prime Timeline, it is Prime Timeline, at least until someone comes up with a good reason why it isn't and pitches it to them and accepts it.

Actually, IFAIK Enterprise (and a version of the missions of Starships Franklin and Kelvin exist in both timelines), so we can't be certain either way.

Personally, I think that the only Star Trek elements that we can be sure are "in canon" for DSC are the above, however given comments from the producers I think it's more likely that the broad strokes of the Prime Timeline are going to be followed rather than the Kelvin Timeline as the main touchstone for the latter appears to be "visual style" and frankly...

I'd say that Star Trek (2009) visuals are the main ones that don't fit so I'm not sure give that much credit.

 

[cultcross]

Time travel in Star Trek usually follows the Back to the Future rules of being able to change your own history, rather than the ST09 rules of splitting off into a new universe.

Well we don't actually know which it is in most cases - how could you tell the difference between an altered future and an alternate timeline? Star Trek had never suffered from grandfather paradoxes, and alternate universes help smooth out that wrinkle. Trek is a bit of a fan of the 'protected by the technobabble' thing though, where someone stays behind in the altered future at least briefly and observes the changes (City on Edge Forever, Past Tense, First Contact) which is harder to reconcile with the alternate timeline approach.

The real life reason why ST09 was explicitly a different universe of course was to mollify fans who didn't want the latter shows 'erased' from their fictional timeline.

 

[Hound of UIster]

Not that it clears things up a lot. Some people believe that ENT is a Prime universe show but some claim that ENT is really a Kelvin timeline series.

If only...

 

[CommanderRaytas]

I'll cling to my 'the Kelvin incident rippled through time in a non-linear way' head canon until I drop and go to Valhalla. To me, ENT is in the Kelvin universe (thanks STID and Beyond for the references!), and since DSC looks like the Kelvin movies, I'm inclined to place it in there, too. Word of God can go take a hike.

Canon, shmanon.

 

[Beagleman]

Not that it clears things up a lot. Some people believe that ENT is a Prime universe show but some claim that ENT is really a Kelvin timeline series.

Well, technically it's both...

 

[Tuskin38]

To me, ENT is in the Kelvin universe (thanks STID and Beyond for the references!)

TOS Era Prime Universe also references Enterprise

 

[CommanderRaytas]

So? I never said they were mutually exclusive. My head canon remains. My attitude is basically LALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU where this is concerned.

But seriously, the theory just makes more sense to me personally.

 

[jamestyler]

I just see it all as having different designers. Lt Commander Larry Burns designs his ships with an old school, grungy feel. Captain Hank Tree likes to design his ships with bright lights and fancy pieces. Commander Todd Unctious prefers the simplistic no nonsense style.

And there we have three variations of looks that can all exist in the one unverse.

Uniforms... I've said (somewhere!) on this board before that with so many cultures and worlds joining the Federation and being absorbed into Starfleet, changes can be attributed to them. A major power joins that is influential in bringing simplistic elements.... the TOS style is born. A major power signs up who have a very formal, militaristic style that Starfleet should incorporate as part of the merger - Monster Maroons are made.

A society and a service vastly more multi-cultured than our own can bring radical changes in style - both in how they dress, and how ships look. It's a massive hand wave, but a logical one to me.

 

[cultcross]

Ultimately i think the timeline argument comes down to whether you are more concerned with look and technological progression, or more concerned with the progression of story events and narrative. Visually, the show screams Kelvin from the new movies (not really nu1701, specifically the Kelvin scenes). I won't dispute that. But as far as we know, the narrative of events from the prime timeline is entirely intact as originally reported - there's certainly nothing to contradict this yet. Captain Pike is probably out there with a cheerfully shouting Spock, and Jim Kirk is a lieutenant somewhere after growing up with his father in Iowa. They may be wearing different uniforms and have different sets in the background, but as far as we know, the prime timeline is intact in that sense.

 

[ozzfloyd]

Head canon is one of the dumbest constructs of late..

 

[cultcross]

Head canon is one of the dumbest constructs of late..

Thanks grandpa
Head canons have existed in Trek since there were spats over whether TAS really 'happened' or whether you acknowledged 'Spock's Brain'. And everyone has one of some description, little details they fill in themselves, backstory they insert or explanations which only make sense to them. Nothing dumb about that.