Kelvin Timeline all but confirmed

[Greg Cox]

Lol. I always find the fan rage around that line funny. It was always obvious kirk was talking metaphorically about spock and not his actual brother, without needing to mention the actual brother. It's truly bizarre. No problem with that line at all. I knew someone would mention it as I wrote that post.

Exactly. The movie didn't require a footnote referencing a nearly-forgotten character who hadn't been mentioned on screen for decades--and who, more importantly, had nothing to do with the plot that of that movie. The movie was all about Kirk and Spock and McCoy, so we all knew who Kirk was talking about.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It was sarcasm.

Again a happy camper, CorporalCaptain is.

Going back to Twok....that whole premise and story is dependent on continuity and canon. It is a sequel to Space Seed.

TWOK is nominally a sequel to "Space Seed," of course, but the continuity specifics are irrelevant for at least three reasons.

1. TWOK tells you everything you need to know about what went on in "Space Seed." Khan recounts the crucial events, such as they are, even characterizing them as a tale that Chekov could have amused his captain with. If that's not making the film accessible to anyone, whether they saw "Space Seed" or not, I don't know what is.

2. The specifics of what went on in "Space Seed" are irrelevant to the primary themes of TWOK, anyway. This fact is lamp-shaded in the middle of the film by this exchange:

CAROL: I don't understand. Who's responsible for all this? ...Who is Khan?
KIRK: Well, it's a long story.
DAVID: We appear to have plenty of time.
KIRK: Is there anything to eat? I don't know about anyone else, but I'm starved.​

The question is raised, and Kirk doesn't even bother to answer, because it's irrelevant. Khan is a one-dimensional character who has only one function: to bring about jeopardy that Kirk can't get out of and Spock must sacrifice to overcome. Everything else is window dressing.

3. The specifics of "Space Seed" are so irrelevant that they are quite mutable by TWOK itself. a) Chekov can be inserted into the background of season one TOS, even though he is nowhere to be seen, and prior to TWOK it was both a common and natural assumption that he wasn't assigned to the Enterprise until later. b) The ethnic makeup of the supermen seems to change without explanation between "Space Seed" and TWOK. c) The amount of time between "Space Seed" and TWOK is at least a little on the fuzzy side. Etc., etc. All. Irrelevant.

Continuity is overrated, especially strict continuity, and canon, shmanon, that doesn't stop anything with higher purpose from happening.

 

[jaime]

Again a happy camper, CorporalCaptain is.


TWOK is nominally a sequel to "Space Seed," of course, but the continuity specifics are irrelevant for at least three reasons.

1. TWOK tells you everything you need to know about what went on in "Space Seed." Khan recounts the crucial events, such as they are, even characterizing them as a tale that Chekov could have amused his captain with. If that's not making the film accessible to anyone, whether they saw "Space Seed" or not, I don't know what is.

2. The specifics of what went on in "Space Seed" are irrelevant to the primary themes of TWOK, anyway. This fact is lamp-shaded in the middle of the film by this exchange:

CAROL: I don't understand. Who's responsible for all this? ...Who is Khan?
KIRK: Well, it's a long story.
DAVID: We appear to have plenty of time.
KIRK: Is there anything to eat? I don't know about anyone else, but I'm starved.​

The question is raised, and Kirk doesn't even bother to answer, because it's irrelevant. Khan is a one-dimensional character who has only one function: to bring about jeopardy that Kirk can't get out of and Spock must sacrifice to overcome. Everything else is window dressing.

3. The specifics of "Space Seed" are so irrelevant that they are quite mutable by TWOK itself. a) Chekov can be inserted into the background of season one TOS, even though he is nowhere to be seen, and prior to TWOK it was both a common and natural assumption that he wasn't assigned to the Enterprise until later. b) The ethnic makeup of the supermen seems to change without explanation between "Space Seed" and TWOK. c) The amount of time between "Space Seed" and TWOK is at least a little on the fuzzy side. Etc., etc. All. Irrelevant.

Continuity is overrated, especially strict continuity, and canon, shmanon, that doesn't stop anything with higher purpose from happening.

And yet, without Space Seed, Twok would simply not happen. I can understand book four of harry Potter without reading the first three. This does not mean there is no continuity with them. nothing in Twok contradicts space seed. Not even Khan's followers.. They are those that survived, and were in a different freezer on the ship. Why wouldn't a product of mid 20th century eugenics and shady research be surrounded by Aryan nation poster children?
I don't think your post shows an honest understanding of what continuity is. Terminator 2 explains the plot of Terminator....does that mean it is not in continuity with it because we don't need it anymore to understand the story? Twok is a sequel to Space Seed, that is inescapable.

 

[Trekkin]

Exactly. The movie didn't require a footnote referencing a nearly-forgotten character who hadn't been mentioned on screen for decades--and who, more importantly, had nothing to do with the plot that of that movie. The movie was all about Kirk and Spock and McCoy, so we all knew who Kirk was talking about.

Yes?

That's kinda why I brought it up.

And yet, without Space Seed, Twok would simply not happen. I can understand book four of harry Potter without reading the first three. This does not mean there is no continuity with them. nothing in Twok contradicts space seed. .

What's Khan again? The product of eugenics? Genetic engineering? Both?

Of course, the answer is 'all three.' No wrong answers, just ones supplied at different times. Yet the series isn't really worse off for it.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I don't think your post shows an honest understanding of what continuity is. Terminator 2 explains the plot of Terminator....does that mean it is not in continuity with it because we don't need it anymore to understand the story?

That's.... not at all what I was getting at. My point was not that TWOK is not in continuity with "Space Seed." My point was that the events of "Space Seed" are largely irrelevant to TWOK and that the dependence that you claimed is there is in fact nonexistent.

 

[jaime]

That's.... not at all what I was getting at. My point was not that TWOK is not in continuity with "Space Seed." My point was that the events of "Space Seed" are largely irrelevant to TWOK and that the dependence that you claimed is there is in fact nonexistent.

It's an outright sequel to Space Seed. Without Space Seed both narratively speaking and production speaking, it would not exist. If it gets more dependent than that, Richard Montalban would be breast feeding it.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It's an outright sequel to Space Seed. Without Space Seed both narratively speaking and production speaking, it would not exist. If it gets more dependent than that, Richard Montalban would be breast feeding it.

Only in the broad strokes, only in the broad strokes.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

It's an outright sequel to Space Seed. Without Space Seed both narratively speaking and production speaking, it would not exist. If it gets more dependent than that, Richard Montalban would be breast feeding it.

Sure it would. You could have replaced Khan with say "Meratok" because it still fits, Kirk changes the subject, we only saw 3 out of 5 years, we did not even see everything. Nothing would have stopped it from being a good movie if you had made him up on the spot. The movie gives you sall the background you need.

In fact, I had never seen spaceseed when I watched WOK as a kid. I had no clue it was even connected until much later.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Sure it would. You could have replaced Khan with say "Meratok" because it still fits, Kirk changes the subject, we only saw 3 out of 5 years, we did not even see everything. Nothing would have stopped it from being a good movie if you had made him up on the spot. The movie gives you sall the background you need.

Bingo.

 

[jaime]

Only in the broad strokes, only in the broad strokes.

I read that in Khan's voice lol.
Seriously though? It features the same cast, is predicated on the same flaws in Khan's character (power for powers sake, not what he can use it for, and an inability to take responsibility for his own actions and not knowing when he is well off.) and the chain of events in it are largely a result of the events of space seed. Only the Genesis aspect of the story is not based in previous continuity, and a few characters and relationships are given back story to ground them alongside everything else. The film has II in the title. All of the main character relationships are based on the history from the TV series....the whole thing is a continuity fest. It even reuses footage from the previous film, and was directly written because Meyer loved Khan in Space Seed.

 

[Mudd]

That's.... not at all what I was getting at. My point was not that TWOK is not in continuity with "Space Seed." My point was that the events of "Space Seed" are largely irrelevant to TWOK and that the dependence that you claimed is there is in fact nonexistent.

You're right.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The film has II in the title.

Actually, originally, on first run in the theater, it did not.

 

[jaime]

Sure it would. You could have replaced Khan with say "Meratok" because it still fits, Kirk changes the subject, we only saw 3 out of 5 years, we did not even see everything. Nothing would have stopped it from being a good movie if you had made him up on the spot. The movie gives you sall the background you need.

In fact, I had never seen spaceseed when I watched WOK as a kid. I had no clue it was even connected until much later.

Neither had I. Again, this post seems to show a lack of understanding as to what continuity is. We had Nemesis...which is a very similar film to Twok, with no continuity basis for its antagonist. So yes..you can have a similar story. But Twok is Twok and is dependent on Space Seed. The Wrath of Insert Name and Back Story is not the same film. Space Seed existed, Twok is in continuity with it.

 

[uniderth]

The idea that First Contact was the separation point appeals to me. They interfered like crazy in that film.

They didn't interfere in anything. The event played out exactly like it did.

This is a moo point.

A "moo" point, eh.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Neither had I. Again, this post seems to show a lack of understanding as to what continuity is. We had Nemesis...which is a very similar film to Twok, with no continuity basis for its antagonist. So yes..you can have a similar story. But Twok is Twok and is dependent on Space Seed. The Wrath of Insert Name and Back Story is not the same film. Space Seed existed, Twok is in continuity with it.

No we understand how it works, But the look is not needed for it. And WoK did not need the TOS to work. WoK totally ignored the look and styling of ToS and worked fine.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

They didn't interfere in anything. The event played out exactly like it did.

To be fair, they did. They told him all kinds of future events, he saw the shape of the ship, he saw the uniforms, the symbol of strfleet, the name starfleet. His engineer went aboard, saw the shape of all ships named enterprise, saw the borg, and so on.


It was like an Episode of Doctor who.

 

[uniderth]

To be fair, they did. They told him all kinds of future events, he saw the shape of the ship, he saw the uniforms, the symbol of strfleet, the name starfleet. His engineer went aboard, saw the shape of all ships named enterprise, saw the borg, and so on.

But those "interferences" were already part of the past for the 24rd century. So they didn't really interfere, they just were part of the past events as the occurred.

 

[jaime]

Actually, originally, on first run in the theater, it did not.

It's in the trailer. Since I was too young to go to the cinema, I can't really one first hand memory.

 

[jaime]

No we understand how it works, But the look is not needed for it. And WoK did not need the TOS to work. WoK totally ignored the look and styling of ToS and worked fine.

I have no issues with 'look' ( though Khan's starlet necklace is a bugbear.) styling is...a word with many definitions. Storyline wise, it is a result of space seed. A good film with a similar story could exist, but, this is not that film. Continuity was uses to enrich the narrative.

 

[jaime]

But those "interferences" were already part of the past for the 24rd century. So they didn't really interfere, they just were part of the past events as the occurred.

And therein lies the paradox.