Kelvin Timeline a kinder, gentler reality?

[pst]

alright let's pull it back a little. my original point was not a TOS vs KT point, it was simply that the kelvin timeline appears to be more at peace, more utopian than previous incarnations of the franchise as depicted thus far.

and it looks like effin disneyland compared to the tone of the star trek: discovery trailers.

 

[Spot261]

alright let's pull it back a little. my original point was not a TOS vs KT point, it was simply that the kelvin timeline appears to be more at peace, more utopian than previous incarnations of the franchise as depicted thus far.

and it looks like effin disneyland compared to the tone of the star trek: discovery trailers.

I'd roll with that, in all likelihood of course because until recently portraying something like Yorktown was unfeasible, but definitely we do get to see the federation more from the civilian point of view, the idealised (ish) society most trek incarnations have focused on the rougher fringes of.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Yes they are. The OP compares timelines, no stipulation is made that it refers to TOS as the series but not the movies.

Then you shouldn't have quoted me because I was specifically was talking about TOS (as in The Original Series) and not the Prime universe in general. And so was @Kemaiku as clearly evidenced by his "weekly" remark.

Here is our complete dialogue if you have trouble following it:

Then TOS having THE END OF THE WORLD every. fucking. week.

In TOS? You haven't watched much of TOS have you?

With the exception of the Doomsday Machine what other End-Of-The-World stories did TOS have?

Too many times to count after over two decades. The DVD's wore out so I'm onto the blurays entirely now.

The blu-rays will do. Still waiting...

And you quoted and answered the last post with Praxis and the Genesis planet!?

 

[M'Sharak]

Here is our complete dialogue if you have trouble following it:

Do remember that you're supposed to be avoiding tactics like the bit bolded above.

Attacking the argument is fair. Attacking the arguer in any way—and that includes insinuations that they might not be bright enough to follow the course of a discussion—is not.

 

[Spot261]

@Captain of the USS Averof .

As it happens I understood the line of reasoning perfectly well. Nonetheless you personally redefining the terms of the argument is pointless. We are in a thread comparing the Kelvin timeline with other incarnations of trek, I'm not debating with you whether the movies qualify as part of the TOS timeline (much less focusing on blu ray releases), they are and that timeline has presented us with far more apocalyptic threats thus far than the Kelvin one. Likely over time that balance will start to redress as more movies are produced but as it stands the OP's observation seems pretty valid.

By all means keep on losing track of the point of the discussion by finding ever more convoluted ways to misdirect or narrow the focus as suits. Feel free to insinuate I am missing the point, it's not as though many people here will actually make any actual judgements about me based on your casual use of snide comments. I apparently have a reputation here for being many things but stupid is not, I suspect, one of them.

Clearly @Kemaiku was not being literal when referring to TOS having the world in danger every single week. There is genuine hyperbole and there is using a figure of speech to illustrate a legitimate point, understanding the difference is a fundamental aspect of communication and again not something I'm going to debate given that it was perfectly obvious what they were doing. Nor for that matter am I going to lower myself to publicly insulting you.

On the contrary if the pedantic, passive aggressive standard at which you engage in this discussion stays so low I will simply ignore you rather than ruin the thread for everyone involved by falling into the trap of having a slanging match. I'm not saying anything to you here that others (including a mod) haven't already pointed out so hopefully you can either respond to a higher standard without the repressed aggression dripping from every post or have the decency not to bother.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Some additional high stakes end-of-the-world TOS stories (apologies if any of these got mentioned) :

"The Alternative Factor" was about averting the end-of-the-universe. What of Lazarus?
"The City of the Edge of Forever" was about averting the end-of-the-timeline.
"Assignment: Earth" was about averting the end-of-the-world. Nuclear kaboom.
"By Any Other Name" was about averting galactic invasion, end-of-the-galaxy.
"Where No Man Has Gone Before" was about averting the end-of-us-white-mice.
"The Cloud Minders" had as its McGuffin averting the end-of-Merak II.
"Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" had it essential that our heroes stop off to avert the end-of-Ariannus.
"Errand of Mercy" was about averting the end-of-millions-of-lives in the Federation and Klingon Empire.

Just off the top of my head.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

you personally redefining the terms of the argument is pointless

By all means keep on losing track of the point of the discussion by finding ever more convoluted ways to misdirect or narrow the focus as suits

understanding the difference is a fundamental aspect of communication

Nor for that matter am I going to lower myself to publicly insulting you

if the pedantic, passive aggressive standard at which you engage in this discussion stays so low I will simply ignore you rather than ruin the thread for everyone involved by falling into the trap of having a slanging match

I'm not saying anything to you here that others (including a mod) haven't already pointed out so hopefully you can either respond to a higher standard without the repressed aggression dripping from every post or have the decency not to bother

WOW! It's a good thing you didn't try to insult me! I don't know what else you would you say if you did!!!

Oh, and so much for this...

Attacking the arguer in any way—and that includes insinuations that they might not be bright enough to follow the course of a discussion—is not.

 

[M'Sharak]

Oh, and so much for this...

Attacking the argument is fair. Attacking the arguer in any way—and that includes insinuations that they might not be bright enough to follow the course of a discussion—is not.

No, that still applies, and I would recommend that you in particular bear it in mind when you participate in discussions here. I shouldn't have to be stepping in all the time to divert you from trying to pick fights with other posters. Be part of the conversation if you like, but check the pugnacious attitude at the door.

And @Spot261 - perhaps you could have opted to stop responding to Averof just one post sooner? Once I've put on the "mod hat" and given a reminder, that point may be considered made, and further reinforcement is neither necessary nor called-for.

 

[mattman8907]

I was rewatching some older ST and i have a lot of questions like
1) Did Bones still pull the plug on his father, David considering the advancements in technology Nero's incursion caused.
2) was Tuvok's parents one of the vulcans that survived the destruction of planet Vulcan.
3) Were Spock and Sarek still at odds over him joining Starfleet and if so did the destruction of Vulcan, cause them to reconcile earlier than 2268.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I was rewatching some older ST and i have a lot of questions like
1) Did Bones still pull the plug on his father, David considering the advancements in technology Nero's incursion caused.

No idea. Probably.

2) was Tuvok's parents one of the vulcans that survived the destruction of planet Vulcan.

Tuvok was born off Vulcan (Vulcanis Lunar Colony), his parents may already have been off-world at the time.

3) Were Spock and Sarek still at odds over him joining Starfleet and if so did the destruction of Vulcan, cause them to reconcile earlier than 2268.

Yes. That covered in the 2009 movie.

 

[F. King Daniel]

So in Discovery's version of the Prime Universe we have a big ol' Klingon/Federation war in 2256. According to Admiral Marcus in Into Darkness in 2259:

"The Klingons have conquered and occupied two planets that we know of, and fired on our ships half a dozen times. They are coming our way."

And since there's still no sign of a Klingon/Federation war in 2263, I give you the Kelvin timeline: The kinder, gentler reality

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Tell that to the Vulcans. Highly illogical.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Tell that to the Vulcans. Highly illogical.

Pfft. Tell that to the Prime Romulans. Kelvin Romulus will likely be saved with the future knowledge of what happens. In both timelines a planet full of Vulcanoids were wiped out. It's a weird kind of even.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Pfft. Tell that to the Prime Romulans. Kelvin Romulus will likely be saved with the future knowledge of what happens. In both timelines a planet full of Vulcanoids were wiped out. It's a weird kind of even.

"Prime" Romulans my @$$. What happens in the Kelvin Universe films stays in the Kelvin Universe films. JJ’s ST09 destroyed both Vulcan and Romulus with billions of dead. And since there's still no sign of a Klingon-Federation war in 2265/67, I give you the Prime Universe: The kinder, gentler reality!

 

[mattman8907]

"Prime" Romulans my @$$. What happens in the Kelvin Universe films stays in the Kelvin Universe films. JJ’s ST09 destroyed both Vulcan and Romulus with billions of dead. And since there's still no sign of a Klingon-Federation war in 2265/67, I give you the Prime Universe: The kinder, gentler reality!

I don't know i wouldn't want to deal with the Dominion war. that was probably the bloodiest conflict in the prime universe seen to date (don't know how bloody this Klingon war in Discovery will get).

 

[F. King Daniel]

"Prime" Romulans my @$$. What happens in the Kelvin Universe films stays in the Kelvin Universe films. JJ’s ST09 destroyed both Vulcan and Romulus with billions of dead. And since there's still no sign of a Klingon-Federation war in 2265/67, I give you the Prime Universe: The kinder, gentler reality!

JJ stole your Spock and blew up your Romulus 8 years ago. Deal with it

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

JJ stole your Spock and blew up your Romulus 8 years ago. Deal with it

He killed Han as well. The rat-bastard!

 

[Tenacity]

What happens in the Kelvin Universe films stays in the Kelvin Universe films

Yes please.

 

[Charles Phipps]

"Prime" Romulans my @$$. What happens in the Kelvin Universe films stays in the Kelvin Universe films. JJ’s ST09 destroyed both Vulcan and Romulus with billions of dead. And since there's still no sign of a Klingon-Federation war in 2265/67, I give you the Prime Universe: The kinder, gentler reality!

?

 

[Rahul]

alright let's pull it back a little. my original point was not a TOS vs KT point, it was simply that the kelvin timeline appears to be more at peace, more utopian than previous incarnations of the franchise as depicted thus far.

and it looks like effin disneyland compared to the tone of the star trek: discovery trailers.

Based on the initial question, it was inevitable this would turn into a Kelvin vs. prime thread.

Keep in mind: Before Star Trek (2009), we rarely ever saw much of Earth. The only few exceptions - San Francisco in the movies and the Academy in TNG/VOY/DS9 - are remarkably similar in optimistic tone to the huge chunks of Kelvin Trek that takes place on Earth. In ST09 Starfleet is a lot more miltaristic than ever before. But still shiny and colorful.

Generally, I was really happy how JJ Abrams depicted the world in ST09. It was pretty much a good depiction of the utopian Earth that was always described on prime Trek, in fact so much so that I didn't see an differences between the two. That is until Vulcan got blow-ed up! After that, Kelvin Trek clearly developed into a much darker version of the prime universe. Billions dead without anyone other than Spock (and Uhura) caring about, the Federation becoming a totalitarian militaristic power with a clearly mad Admiral at the helm, at the brink of war (which we just didn't saw in the movies), and mass death on Earth/San Francisco being depicted as something not unusal (compared to, say, the TOS movies). It went so far, that Beyond basically needed to ignore everything that happened prior and pretend the previous movie never happened to return to the Utopian future of Trek.

That being said: The tone the filmmakers hit was way more appropriate than the "dark" depiction of Discovery (even though by objective standards, the war with the klingons in DIS is a lot less costly in lifes than any of the events of any Kelvin-timeline movie).