Kate Mulgrew not a J/C'er!!!!

[Withers]

Especially when DS9 covered the concept of contriceptive injections or the old saying of Naval Officers having a lover in every port of call. Riker got lucky every where he went, why can't the same be true from members of Voyager? We've seen Harry do it several times. Even the EMH found his jollies in a Vidiian woman.

Yeah, I mean it's not hard to imagine that these people were shacking up left and right since, after Seven of Nine came aboard, essentially 3 people were all that was required to run Voyager anyway. That there was only one baby (who was actually conceived in the Alpha Quadrant, right?) isn't hard to imagine... but even if it were completely unrealistic, I'd still be glad of it in this case based on the alternative.

-Withers-​

 

[T.D. Possum]

And only one Delta Quadrant baby, too!

Yeah, but c'mon... of all the unrealistic depictions on Voyager isn't this the one that's most palatable? .

-Withers-​

Point to you, Withers.

It was just something that was brought to the front of my mind by this particular conversation. As with the primary topic here - J/C - I think that this issue is interesting, but would have been handled poorly in the Voyager series.

 

[exodus]

Especially when DS9 covered the concept of contriceptive injections or the old saying of Naval Officers having a lover in every port of call. Riker got lucky every where he went, why can't the same be true from members of Voyager? We've seen Harry do it several times. Even the EMH found his jollies in a Vidiian woman.

Yeah, I mean it's not hard to imagine that these people were shacking up left and right since, after Seven of Nine came aboard, essentially 3 people were all that was required to run Voyager anyway. That there was only one baby (who was actually conceived in the Alpha Quadrant, right?) isn't hard to imagine... but even if it were completely unrealistic, I'd still be glad of it in this case based on the alternative.

-Withers-​

Agreed.

Plus, I think w/ the Eugenics Wars coming and going without a word & the Millienium Gate, we can now safely say Star Trek itself doesn't take place in our "real" universe.

...but the no money, hunger, prejudice or poverty should have been the clue years ago anyway.

To quote "3rd Rock from the Sun": "It's called Science Fiction not Science Fact or it would be called Sci-Fa!!"

 

[JanewayRulz!]

We also have to acknowledge that the Captain of Voyager, unlike Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Archer, had a fiance. One, she readily admitted to her hunky first officer with dimples to die for, she hoped hadn't given her up for dead during "Elogium".

Janeway was "faithful" to that absent fiance, as she told the hallucination in "Persistence of vision". The woman was SO SURE she would get back to the Alpha Quadrant and by extension to Mark, that she wouldn't even consider the possibility that she and Chakotay wouldn't get off "New Earth" during their quarantine and back home until the storm destroyed her science lab.

It wasn't until midway through Voy's 4th season that Janeway finally gave up on Mark.

JANEWAY: ....On top of all that, I got a Dear John letter. It wasn't really a surprise. I guess I didn't really expect him to wait for me considering the circumstances. It made me realize that I was using him as a safety net...

Now, although I would have much preferred her to resume the relationship I suspect she started on New Earth, once she gave up the fantasy that Mark was waiting for her... Kate's refusal to let the writers go down that road probably saved the reputations of BOTH the Captain and the First Officer.

As much disrespect that has been voiced on this board re: Chakotay, imagine what vitriole would be poured on his head if he was also Janeway's bed partner. He didn't stand up to her, he didn't challenge her, because then he wouldn't have "his" date card filled every night.

As much as I think it makes sense for them to pair off if they are going to spend the next 75 years flying home, I can see the need for Janeway to limit her entanglements with her crew. As Picard found out in that ep where his lover was nearly lost on an away mission, the true love of a Starship captain is his/her ship and nothing/no-one should come between them. In my interpretation of the end of "Resolutions", it's THAT reality that Janeway was communicating to Chakotay when she sadly looked him in the eye before they were transported back to Voyager.

Its also the reason why their relationship (J/C ) is so heartbreaking.

Kathryn doesn't belief in brief flings, as she told Gath in "Prime factors", and the one relationship that became over 7 years what she said she preferred..."The reward of relationships that endure and grow deeper with the passing of time." was the one she couldn't allow herself to have.

That's what makes them so poignant to my eye. That's why the sidelong glances at Chakotay when he's talking about Riley in "Unity" or Valerie in "In the Flesh", and his towards her when she's snogging Jaffen in "WorkForce" just break by heart.

 

[Noss]

I dont think the lack of a love interest for Janeway hurt my interest in the show. I dont feel Janeway set back the women's movement any further either by not having a love interest. She is like a lot of women today. They can either concentrate on career, or family, or somehow do both poorly. Not that its impossible to do both, its just a great deal of tradeoffs must be made to balance career and family.

Also if Janeway had a love interest, it might interfere in the male demographic who had a crush on her.

She's right about her lame holodeck "love interests". But I completely disagree with her arguments about a female captain not being able to have relationships and remain a convincing authority figure. "What's good for the gander is not good for the geese"?! Ugh. I thought she was supposed to be breaking new ground on Trek and what not, rather than be a slave to sexist double standards and worry if some supposed target demographics would have a problem with her character.

This is really what pisses me off the most about VOY's portrayal of Janeway, why couldn't they just have a strong character who happens to be a woman, and treat her in the same way they would have treated a male captain? Instead, they just had to point out that "oh look, she is a woman! and a captain!" (Q's atrocious line in "Deathwish" about her "having authority without losing her femininity" - as if people of the 24th century, let alone incredibly old, powerful alien beings, would find the fact that a woman is a captain so unusual and extraordinary) and to worry if the audience would take her seriously if she had a love life, even though nobody seemed to have that problem with Kirk, Picard or Sisko.

 

[DevilEyes]

Also if Janeway had a love interest, it might interfere in the male demographic who had a crush on her.

That didn't stop a bunch of other Trek characters that people lusted after from having love interests.

Personally, I don't care if Janeway did or didn't have love interests. But "she wouldn't be able to be taken seriously if she had one, because she is a woman" is a horrible reason.

 

[kimc]

Rumor has it Mulgrew and Beltran had an affair that went sour. I'm not sure if it's true or not but if so then neither actor would want to touch J/C with a ten foot pole.

I can't say I buy many of the arguments against J/C:

"They weren't attracted to each other" - Whatever!
"Woman in command" - double standard
"Why should Janeway be happy if the crew is stranded..." - what use would her being unhappy serve the crew?
Etc, etc.

The one argument against that works for me is the Sam/Diane or Ross/Rachel argument: Characters often lose their chemistry after they're together. For me the ending that makes the most sense would have been the original "Workforce" idea where Chakotay was Janeway's lover on Quarra. The repercussions of that experience would have made a nice character arc for the two in the final episodes as they decide to either move forward, stay friends or whatever.

Failing that they could have just done a neutral ending instead of the pointless and stupid C/7 pairing. What a waste.

 

[propita]

Rumor has it Mulgrew and Beltran had an affair that went sour. I'm not sure if it's true or not but if so then neither actor would want to touch J/C with a ten foot pole.

I can't say I buy many of the arguments against J/C:

"They weren't attracted to each other" - Whatever!
"Woman in command" - double standard
"Why should Janeway be happy if the crew is stranded..." - what use would her being unhappy serve the crew?
Etc, etc.

The one argument against that works for me is the Sam/Diane or Ross/Rachel argument: Characters often lose their chemistry after they're together. For me the ending that makes the most sense would have been the original "Workforce" idea where Chakotay was Janeway's lover on Quarra. The repercussions of that experience would have made a nice character arc for the two in the final episodes as they decide to either move forward, stay friends or whatever.

Failing that they could have just done a neutral ending instead of the pointless and stupid C/7 pairing. What a waste.

I remember that rumor about Mulgrew and Beltran. It was sometimes written off as Beltran's sense of humor at cons, but I had heard elsewhere that the rumor was true and was far more than a casual fling. But it didn't work out and she ended up married to someone else (Tim Hagen).

 

[JanewayRulz!]

She must have been very busy on the set, since didn't she also have a long association with one of the directors before she resumed her romance with Hagan?

 

[Withers]

The one argument against that works for me is the Sam/Diane or Ross/Rachel argument: Characters often lose their chemistry after they're together. For me the ending that makes the most sense would have been the original "Workforce" idea where Chakotay was Janeway's lover on Quarra. The repercussions of that experience would have made a nice character arc for the two in the final episodes as they decide to either move forward, stay friends or whatever.

A better sci-fi example name for this occurrence is the Mulder/Scully argument; after years of wanting them to get together (like 6 or 7) they finally do and what happens? One starts to wonder why they were ever in favor of the hookup. In Janeway and Chakotay's case all their romance would have added was a reason for Chakotay's continued presence on the show.

-Withers-​

 

[Lynx]

I can actually see the point of Janeway not having a relationship during Voyager's long journey. As the captain, she must keep a certain distance to the rest of the crew, even her closest friends among the senior staff and remain focused on the task to take the ship and the crew back to Federation space.

What annoys me is that those in charge didn't give the fans a "happy ending" with Janeway and Chakotay at the end of the series, something which would have been appreciated by many fans.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

What annoys me is that those in charge didn't give the fans a "happy ending" with Janeway and Chakotay at the end of the series, something which would have been appreciated by many fans

So say we all!

At least, all we J/Cer's!

 

[Withers]

What annoys me is that those in charge didn't give the fans a "happy ending" with Janeway and Chakotay at the end of the series, something which would have been appreciated by many fans.

I think they gave about as much lip service to that idea as the rest of us who weren't wild about the two of them hooking up could stomach in that Admiral Janeway essentially decided to completely alter history in order to save two people (kind of three if you count Tuvok); Chakotay and Seven of Nine. She did so, ostensibly, because she cared so much for Chakotay she wanted him to be happy, even if that wasn't with her. That was enough for me... perhaps even more than enough.

If they'd tacked on a "J/C" moment in the finale I'd have rolled my eyes just as hard as I did at 7/C.

-Withers-​

 

[Galekarens]

There were so many HINTs (in Hunters, Timeless, Shattered, to name a few) that predicted a J/C relationship, at least at the end when they got home. That TPTB did not follow through after getting (most of) the fans interested in a "happy end" for KJ was almost a cruel joke played on them (ha, ha we can do what we want). What happened in Endgame colored how I felt about Voyager for years; I couldn't re-watch the show until just last year, which was a shame as I was a BIG fan. GS (PS, now, tho fanfic rules, hooray!)

 

[exodus]

The one argument against that works for me is the Sam/Diane or Ross/Rachel argument: Characters often lose their chemistry after they're together. For me the ending that makes the most sense would have been the original "Workforce" idea where Chakotay was Janeway's lover on Quarra. The repercussions of that experience would have made a nice character arc for the two in the final episodes as they decide to either move forward, stay friends or whatever.

A better sci-fi example name for this occurrence is the Mulder/Scully argument; after years of wanting them to get together (like 6 or 7) they finally do and what happens? One starts to wonder why they were ever in favor of the hookup. In Janeway and Chakotay's case all their romance would have added was a reason for Chakotay's continued presence on the show.

-Withers-​

Am I the only one here old enough to remember Dave/Madie? That show was the biggest example of how ending sexual tension with the actual act can ruin what was a great series.


Galekarens, I did see any future prediction in any of those eps. other than Chakotay telling Janeway: "We just stay friends." or "There are some lines we just don't cross." Which indicates they were never going to be together.

 

[Voyagerian]

I've always thought, yes, it would be great to see the two together, and ''Reolutions'' was a great ep, one of the series' best IMO, which also pointed to the loyalty and love the crew had for both of them. But, then, the not-to-be nature of their relationship gave a poignance, yet, it was clear that, just because nothing actually came to be, there didn't always remain a strong, deep, and lasting bond between them, exemplified in ''Endgame'...and, the stuggle Kathryn had to deal with the isolation from a romantic viewpoint, both before and after she learned Mark had moved on, added to the richness of a great character.

 

[Brit]

The one argument against that works for me is the Sam/Diane or Ross/Rachel argument: Characters often lose their chemistry after they're together. For me the ending that makes the most sense would have been the original "Workforce" idea where Chakotay was Janeway's lover on Quarra. The repercussions of that experience would have made a nice character arc for the two in the final episodes as they decide to either move forward, stay friends or whatever.

A better sci-fi example name for this occurrence is the Mulder/Scully argument; after years of wanting them to get together (like 6 or 7) they finally do and what happens? One starts to wonder why they were ever in favor of the hookup. In Janeway and Chakotay's case all their romance would have added was a reason for Chakotay's continued presence on the show.

-Withers-​

Am I the only one here old enough to remember Dave/Madie? That show was the biggest example of how ending sexual tension with the actual act can ruin what was a great series.


Galekarens, I did see any future prediction in any of those eps. other than Chakotay telling Janeway: "We just stay friends." or "There are some lines we just don't cross." Which indicates they were never going to be together.

The Dave/Mattie is a good argument because you are right once the relationship is made the tension ends and often the story. Problem is that once you go down that path (and I believe the Producers did use "Unresolved Sexual Tension" between Kathryn and Chakotay, you owe the audience the payoff too.

Now the payoff actually should come at the end of the series, which is a big reason that the C/7 stuff was so jarring to the fans of that relationship.

The big problem with the Dave/Mattie relationship was not that there was the payoff, but that the payoff came too soon.


Brit

 

[Withers]

They owed us a lot of things at the end of this series and I can count, on one hand, the "debts" that were paid off. Of all the series that needed an 8th season but didn't deserve one, Voyager is at the top of my list. There were so many things that just didn't get "tied up" and this...relationship just isn't very high on the list for me, not because I care about it one way or the other very passionately, but because there were so many bigger things.

This is like being upset that there's mud on your carpet while your house is on fire.

-Withers-​

 

[kimc]

They owed us a lot of things at the end of this series and I can count, on one hand, the "debts" that were paid off. Of all the series that needed an 8th season but didn't deserve one, Voyager is at the top of my list. There were so many things that just didn't get "tied up" and this...relationship just isn't very high on the list for me, not because I care about it one way or the other very passionately, but because there were so many bigger things.

-Withers-​

The thing is they should have started tying up all the loose ends in the middle of Season 7. Instead, they kept giving mediocre (for the most part) one-offs which left you wondering when they were going to get started.

 

[exodus]

A better sci-fi example name for this occurrence is the Mulder/Scully argument; after years of wanting them to get together (like 6 or 7) they finally do and what happens? One starts to wonder why they were ever in favor of the hookup. In Janeway and Chakotay's case all their romance would have added was a reason for Chakotay's continued presence on the show.

-Withers-​

Am I the only one here old enough to remember Dave/Madie? That show was the biggest example of how ending sexual tension with the actual act can ruin what was a great series.


Galekarens, I did see any future prediction in any of those eps. other than Chakotay telling Janeway: "We just stay friends." or "There are some lines we just don't cross." Which indicates they were never going to be together.

The Dave/Mattie is a good argument because you are right once the relationship is made the tension ends and often the story. Problem is that once you go down that path (and I believe the Producers did use "Unresolved Sexual Tension" between Kathryn and Chakotay, you owe the audience the payoff too.

Now the payoff actually should come at the end of the series, which is a big reason that the C/7 stuff was so jarring to the fans of that relationship.

The big problem with the Dave/Mattie relationship was not that there was the payoff, but that the payoff came too soon.


Brit

I agree.

However, the obsticle in front of all that is Kate Mulgrew.
Even if the fans and maybe even the writers wanted that ending, she wasn't having it.

I don't know if this rumor is true but I heard Mulgrew had a hand in writing "Endgame" and concerns with her character. If that is true, then it doesn't look like she still wanted Janeway & Chakotay together even at the series conclusion. Maybe C/7 was originally written for C/J, vetoed by Mulgrew and rewritten on set to be C/7. Which might be another reason why it feels tacked on.

Who knows..