Just watched TSFS again

[Hypaspist]

My point is still that TSFS gets nitpicked to hell while 4 gets a pass, even though it has more ridiculous (non comedy) things happen. The difference is that 3's problems never detracted from my enjoyment of the movie. 4 was bad to me because of a combination of things, even though I understand how people could like it. 3 gets shat on, it seems like, more because it's odd numbered and because it didn't sell as well (but who cares about this?)

Not every minor mistake is movie breaking. Sometimes they have to screw up things here and there to move the plot along or to keep the main characters immune to death. Part 6 had a lot of plot problems, and DS9 made Trek technology 100 years more primitive...but neither one of those things were nearly as ridiculous as Picard's toy plastic phaser rifle breaking at the end of Nemesis because he hit somebody in the head with it.

 

[Commishsleer]

My point is still that TSFS gets nitpicked to hell while 4 gets a pass, even though it has more ridiculous (non comedy) things happen. The difference is that 3's problems never detracted from my enjoyment of the movie. 4 was bad to me because of a combination of things, even though I understand how people could like it. 3 gets shat on, it seems like, more because it's odd numbered and because it didn't sell as well (but who cares about this?)

I agree. I find 4 ridiculous at times. I almost prefer TFF to it. I don't think its a fitting end to a TWOK TSFS trilogy. Its not light enough for a comedy but not serious enough for a drama.

Although I like that for once we get to see Scotty, Uhura, Chekov, Sulu in action and its family-like charm and I like the whale theme.

I can't be bothered nitpicking TVH because it wouldn't survive even the lightest scrutiny.

 

[phredy]

The onion that is TWoK-TSFS has many layers. They can be watched as a couple of simple adventure movies all the way up to a great study of the human condition. TVH is pretty simple in comparison. I found it to be a fun buddy picture that didn't need a lot of thought. Almost like an intermission before diving back in with V. The shallow end, of course.

 

[Hypaspist]

Without apologizing for 5's many failures, it is enjoyable to throw on as a kind of Star Trek comedy. There is the one truly great scene in which Kirk explains how his pain makes him the man he is, and the interaction between the big three is good overall. 5 isn't a good movie and it kind of sucks that it turned out like it did, but it really doesn't piss me off when I watch it because it is funny. Actually it kind of gets back to the roots of a happy future in a lot of ways. I was expecting the clothes to come off at a few points in the movie. So at least it's not downright unwatchable.

well except for that part with Kirk and the Klingon exchanging nazi/romanesque salutes. I don't know what that was about

 

[phredy]

The bricks were strong, but the mortar was weak. There are good ideas, but they are sometimes hidden under the flaws. Plus, you never know if Kirk rock climbing represents his journey to better himself or if it's just Shatner's ego.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I honestly don't see what's so surprising about Sulu knowing how to fly a helicopter. "I flew something similar in my academy days," is a perfectly reasonable explanation. Hobbyist Midshipmen learn how to sail old clipper ships.

 

[2takesfrakes]

If not for observing the bridge crew looking out the window for a third of the movie, TMP would be my favorite. It's looks gorgeous, it sounds gorgeous ... it's almost a work of art, rather than a commercial product of its time. As it is, TSFS is my favourite STAR TREK movie and there are many reasons for that. However, the script is very lean - everything is to tell the story. The only whimsy involved - arguably - was the casket worms. There is an occassional attempt at some humour in the dialogue that's kind of quirky, but nobody really talks normally. It's just saying what it takes to establish something, update new information, or wrap something up. For example, David & Saavik on the planet.

Their conversations are so clipped it's just begging for some warmth, some Humanity and it's just checking off plot points. And it's not just these two, everyone in the entire movie does this. I love this movie partly because of this, though, because intended, or not, it gives this movie a certain innocence. Aside from the translucent gowns of the Vulcan Alter Girls or Valkris' plunging neckline, this movie is absolutely sexless, for one thing. For another, everybody's well-intentioned, even the Klingons, who are acting "for the preseveration of (their) race." It's both this movie's charm and its major flaw. There's no grey area and there's no deviation from the only possible outcome.

 

[Hober Mallow]

I haven't seen TSFS in many years, but it never make any damn sense to me. I brought this up in another thread some time back, but what exactly was Kirk's plan? All he knows is that Spock's chakra (excuse me, katra) is inside McCoy's head. McCoy asked Kirk to take him to Vulcan. Sarek told Kirk to go to Vulcan. So Kirk steals the Excelsior and heads off to... Genesis? Why? To find Spock's reanimated body which they knew nothing about and seemed surprised to find? What was the point of going to Genesis in the first place?

Someone mentioned the novelization is a little clearer on this point, but you would think it would be in the film proper, considering it's no minor point.

 

[Commishsleer]

I haven't seen TSFS in many years, but it never make any damn sense to me. I brought this up in another thread some time back, but what exactly was Kirk's plan? All he knows is that Spock's chakra (excuse me, katra) is inside McCoy's head. McCoy asked Kirk to take him to Vulcan. Sarek told Kirk to go to Vulcan. So Kirk steals the Excelsior and heads off to... Genesis? Why? To find Spock's reanimated body which they knew nothing about and seemed surprised to find? What was the point of going to Genesis in the first place?

Someone mentioned the novelization is a little clearer on this point, but you would think it would be in the film proper, considering it's no minor point.

Exactly.
I guess (maybe wrongly) they changed the script and scenes around last minute so it suddenly didn't make sense.

In retrospect they could have done it like this.
1. Have Starfleet imprison McCoy so that Kirk is forced to make a jail break.
2. Have Kirk take the Enterprise because he's a fugitive and the Enterprise is about to be scrapped and as a thank you to Starfleet for their support.
3. Have Kirk intend to go to Vulcan but be diverted to Genesis because of a distress call.

 

[dub]

I thought they were going to Genesis intending to find at least some of Spock's remains, which they would bring back to Vulcan so they could set his Katra free out of respect for Spock and to save McCoy from madness. Finding the photon tube in tact was a bonus. Finding a regenerated Spock was a miracle.

 

[Timo]

The timeline of these events is not particularly mysterious or anything.

1) McCoy acts oddly, heroes are concerned; McCoy keeps saying "Why did you leave me on Genesis?" and "Take me to Vulcan"
2) Grissom locates Spock's coffin, reports home, observes a "lifeform" next to it, investigates
3) Sarek bursts in on Kirk, accuses him of not bringing Spock's body to Vulcan, explains Spock's katra is in Kirk
4) Kirk denies, katra is found to be in McCoy, Sarek wants "both" on Vulcan
5) Kirk begs Starfleet for permission to retrieve Spock's body from Genesis
6) Hilarity ensues

Sarek originally wanted Spock's body, for reasons unknown. Spock's body is on Genesis. Grissom has reported on the great likelihood of the body being more or less intact even before Sarek bursts in - perhaps Sarek was prompted to act by that very report? From there on, efforts to retrieve Spock's body move on consistently.

What's there to explain? Only one thing: why does Sarek want Spock's body?

We don't know, but we know that the body was wanted even before it was known that the body was not a corpse any more. Sarek wanted both the katra, from Kirk's head, and the dead corpse. Both are "inhuman" wishes, both are Vulcan cultural quirks, and there's no particular reason why we should have an "explanation" for why Sarek of Vulcan wants such things. It's rightly called "Vulcan mysticism", and Sarek is entitled to it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[2takesfrakes]

... Have Kirk intend to go to Vulcan but be diverted to Genesis because of a distress call.

This would've been absolutely brilliant! Chekov's scanning the radio waves anyway and I would've expected Estaban to send out an S.O.S.. Kirk, doing what Kirk does, would've naturally answered the call. Now, picking up Spock's body is a surprise to Kirk & Company and it's completely organic to the story. But, I guess, when there's deadline pressures to complete a script, things like this just slip through the cracks, sometimes ...

 

[Commishsleer]

The timeline of these events is not particularly mysterious or anything.

1) McCoy acts oddly, heroes are concerned; McCoy keeps saying "Why did you leave me on Genesis?" and "Take me to Vulcan"
2) Grissom locates Spock's coffin, reports home, observes a "lifeform" next to it, investigates
3) Sarek bursts in on Kirk, accuses him of not bringing Spock's body to Vulcan, explains Spock's katra is in Kirk
4) Kirk denies, katra is found to be in McCoy, Sarek wants "both" on Vulcan
5) Kirk begs Starfleet for permission to retrieve Spock's body from Genesis
6) Hilarity ensues

Sarek originally wanted Spock's body, for reasons unknown. Spock's body is on Genesis. Grissom has reported on the great likelihood of the body being more or less intact even before Sarek bursts in - perhaps Sarek was prompted to act by that very report? From there on, efforts to retrieve Spock's body move on consistently.

What's there to explain? Only one thing: why does Sarek want Spock's body?

We don't know, but we know that the body was wanted even before it was known that the body was not a corpse any more. Sarek wanted both the katra, from Kirk's head, and the dead corpse. Both are "inhuman" wishes, both are Vulcan cultural quirks, and there's no particular reason why we should have an "explanation" for why Sarek of Vulcan wants such things. It's rightly called "Vulcan mysticism", and Sarek is entitled to it.

Timo Saloniemi

Did Sarek say he wanted the body?

I thought he said he wanted McCoy and Spock (meaning Spock's katra) to meet at Mt Seleya. Did he mention Spock's rotting corpse?
Although Kirk assumes a visit to Genesis is necessary but I can't see why from the dialog in the movie. Its been a while since I've seen the movie though.

 

[Timo]

Did Sarek say he wanted the body?

Well, it goes like this, ambiguous as it is:

Sarek: "Why did you leave him on Genesis!? Spock trusted you. You denied him his future!"
Kirk: "I saw no future."
Sarek: "Only his body was in death, Kirk. And you were the last one to be with him."
Kirk: "...Yes, I was."
Sarek: "Then you must know that you should have come with him to Vulcan."
Kirk: "But ...why?"
Sarek: "Because he asked you to! He entrusted you with his very essence, with everything that was not of the body. He asked you to bring him to us ...And bring that which he gave you, his katra, his living spirit."

There are several reasons to think Sarek is speaking about Spock's body here:

1) Sarek is ranting and raving about Kirk not bringing Spock from Genesis. The katra is invisible from a distance, even to a Vulcan. Sarek wouldn't know whether Kirk has brought the katra or not - he could only tell Kirk has not brought the body.

2) Spock was supposed to have asked Kirk to "bring him to us" and to bring "that which he gave you", that is, the katra. The "and" meaning that it's not one and the same thing that is being spoken of, but two things. So the "him" part must refer to the corpse.

We don't know if Sarek at this point knows the body has been resurrected. The dialogue would suggest not, IMHO - "the body was in death".

Later on, we get this:

Sarek: "One alive, one not. Yet both in pain."
Kirk: "What must I do?"
Sarek: "You must bring them to Mount Seleya, on Vulcan. Only there can both find peace."

After this, Kirk goes after Spock's body on Genesis. Did he misunderstand Sarek? Did Sarek merely mean that "both" McCoy and Spock were within the Doctor's skull and that skull had to be delivered to Vulcan? Possibly. But it's equally possible that Sarek always wanted Spock's corpse back, and it's also pretty obvious why this would be. McCoy is in pain for having to accommodate a katra. Naturally, Kirk should also be, had Spock used Kirk's head for this. And the corpse could well be the key to drawing the katra out of the temporary host, and into whatever fate it is that normally awaits katras (put in a jar, scattered to the winds, shared among the relatives, whatever). That the corpse was alive meant extra options, but that wouldn't hamper the story logic.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Cal]

Kruge played by Christopher Lloyd may be my favorite Klingon in all of Trek. He's a smart, tactically sound, politically savvy leader unlike so many who are written and played as bufoons.

 

[Smellmet]

Kruge was a great villain in hindsight, right up there with the very best in the series IMO, he's criminally overlooked because, like the movie he was in, came off the back of TWOK and was always going to be unfairly compared to.

 

[Timo]

Even the "unnecessary" elements of villainly blustering that are part of the Kruge character feel justified enough. Sure, we are being hammered with the knowledge that this is an evil man who kills civilians and his own men with equal abandon, but that's okay when our antagonism towards Kruge doesn't hinge exclusively on us buying the fact that he's eeeeevil.

And it's quite amusing how he likes to demonstrate his physical strength in front of his own men (the worm-strangling scene), because it serves three functions: it fleshes out the form of villainy that Kruge practices, it demonstrates that Klingons in general are formidable opponents in physical combat, and it foreshadows and justifies a fisticuffs showdown. The latter is particularly important in a movie where heroes and villains have rayguns, starships and transporters: if not for this psychological quirk of the villain, Kirk could never hope to overwhelm him and carry the day.

Also, funneling this galaxy-rattling political crisis through the person of a selfish spy is a neat way to both make it personal and have it eventually blow over... Kruge really convinces as the guy who would fumble Genesis!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

Kruge was a great villain in hindsight, right up there with the very best in the series IMO, he's criminally overlooked because, like the movie he was in, came off the back of TWOK and was always going to be unfairly compared to.

+1

 

[Hober Mallow]

We don't know if Sarek at this point knows the body has been resurrected. The dialogue would suggest not, IMHO - "the body was in death".

Later on, we get this:

Sarek: "One alive, one not. Yet both in pain."
Kirk: "What must I do?"
Sarek: "You must bring them to Mount Seleya, on Vulcan. Only there can both find peace."

After this, Kirk goes after Spock's body on Genesis. Did he misunderstand Sarek? Did Sarek merely mean that "both" McCoy and Spock were within the Doctor's skull and that skull had to be delivered to Vulcan? Possibly. But it's equally possible that Sarek always wanted Spock's corpse back, and it's also pretty obvious why this would be.

There's also Sarek's "Why did you leave him on Genesis?" Makes sense. Like I said, I haven't seen the movie in years.

 

[Shat Happens]

What I had to say about Kruge: http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=9023986&postcount=25