Just Watched Insurrection Again After Years

[Defiler-Of-Redshirts]

I should point out another opinion on this thread I'm sure many will disagree with: I did like Nemesis better than Insurrection. Besides having a far more urgent, intense story atmosphere overall, I happen to find cloning/DNA stories far more interesting than fountain-of-youth stories. And it gave the world the rather interesting actor Tom Hardy.

I'm not saying Insurrection is a good movie, but it's not unpleasant to sit through on a rainy day if you have nothing better to do at home. But given a choice, I'd rather watch Nemesis. At the very, very least Nemesis starship/space choreography was beautifully done.

 

[Tenacity]

Who wouldn't have loved to have seen the Enterprise engaged in a battle with a Jem'Hadar warship?

I wouldn't have, it was a TNG movie, not a DS9 movie. Why have the Jem'Hadar in it?

And this is the rub for me - everything about Insurrection felt small scale and inconsequential

One of the thing I really appreciate about INS was the "smallness" of it. No planet with hundreds of millions of people was being threatened, Earth wasn't being threatened, the galaxy wasn't being threatened.

No madman with a ridiculously big ship.

it's wrong to displace a people simply because they have something we want

They were to be moved so they wouldn't be harmed when the collector gathered up the rings, The Federation already possessed the rings (and the planet), both being in Federation space.

 

[Damian]

One of the thing I really appreciate about INS was the "smallness" of it. No planet with hundreds of millions of people was being threatened, Earth wasn't being threatened, the galaxy wasn't being threatened.

No madman with a ridiculously big ship.

Well, I can agree with you there. It's certainly annoying that a majority of films portray Earth in some sort of peril. And Star Trek is supposed to be about boldly going and a number of the movies are.....here or near here.

It was a plus that Insurrection didn't involve Earth at all...was it even mentioned? It's one thing I liked about Beyond--no Earth.

With a movie, esp. a sci-fi movie I think the general population wants big though. I think Insurrection was too small. I mean, it was interesting enough to keep my attention, but it just wasn't that memorable. It's not a Star Trek film I'd recommend to a casual viewer. I don't think it has to be mindless action. You can have intelligent action/adventure. But Insurrection just didn't excite the imagination.

But then I'm also someone that likes TMP best among the Star Trek films, a movie that isn't exactly known for action. Though I always considered it the most pure of the Star Trek films (sorry, I guess that's for another thread).

I wouldn't have, it was a TNG movie, not a DS9 movie. Why have the Jem'Hadar in it?

Well, maybe. It just seems very odd to me that there is a fierce war going on with the Federation and the flagship of Starfleet was on it's way to an archaeological dig before diverting to the Ba'ku planet. You know, honestly it would have been nice if there was just a teaser sequence at the beginning with the Enterprise fighting a Jem'Hadar ship, even just a pre-credit sequence. I would have loved to have seen the Enterprise matched up against a Jem'Hadar warship just once on screen. Even if the story involved the Dominion War it doesn't mean the movie would have had to been a large battle movie. It could have been the Enterprise sent on a secret mission to stop the Dominion from doing something. And there are probably a million ways to write a movie that does not require any background knowledge in DS9. It need not even feature the Jem'Hadar/Vorta/Founders to any great degree. It still could have been focused on the Enterprise characters.

 

[SolarisOne]

Riker flying the ship with a Thrustmaster Pro joystick. Truly awful.

Why? That's a much more appropriate way of piloting a ship in 3D space than a flat touchscreen.

 

[Yellow Flame Sushi]

Why? That's a much more appropriate way of piloting a ship in 3D space than a flat touchscreen.

A gaming joystick only offers 3 degrees of freedom when for complete spacecraft translation and rotation control you would need a device offering 6 degrees of freedom such as a space mouse (http://spacemice.org).

 

[SolarisOne]

A gaming joystick only offers 3 degrees of freedom when for complete spacecraft translation and rotation control you would need a device offering 6 degrees of freedom such as a space mouse (http://spacemice.org).

It's still more appropriate than a touchscreen. Which was my point.

 

[Vger23]

Yeah, at best I'd call it fair. It had good music, good cinematography IMO, and while the special effects didn't blow me away they were at least average. The story was fair at best though. It didn't lose me, I was able to stay engaged while watching it, but it didn't excite me. It was just meh.

I'll watch it, but usually only when I'm doing a film rewatch (much like watching an entire series). It's not one I'd pull out at random like I would First Contact or even Nemesis.

So for me it's not unwatchable. But it's not a go-to movie to watch for the hell of it.

And I'd love to see Paramount fork over a little dough to 'fix' TFF. In this day and age they probably could do it pretty inexpensively. And I do think there is a market for it. That would be enough to push TFF above Insurrection. But yeah, the special effects totally ruin any good in that film. I cringe every time. I still can't believe Paramount let it be released in that condition. Frankly I would have been embarrassed. The effects in the other Star Trek films varied a bit, but the other 12 films at the very least looked competent in that area. But TFF is just plain bad.

TFF could greatly benefit from a VfX overhaul. I agree entirely.

I should point out another opinion on this thread I'm sure many will disagree with: I did like Nemesis better than Insurrection. Besides having a far more urgent, intense story atmosphere overall, I happen to find cloning/DNA stories far more interesting than fountain-of-youth stories. And it gave the world the rather interesting actor Tom Hardy.

I'm not saying Insurrection is a good movie, but it's not unpleasant to sit through on a rainy day if you have nothing better to do at home. But given a choice, I'd rather watch Nemesis. At the very, very least Nemesis starship/space choreography was beautifully done.

Fully agreed. Nemesis is leaps-and-bounds a more competent and engaging film that Insurrection.

I wouldn't have, it was a TNG movie, not a DS9 movie. Why have the Jem'Hadar in it?One of the thing I really appreciate about INS was the "smallness" of it. No planet with hundreds of millions of people was being threatened, Earth wasn't being threatened, the galaxy wasn't being threatened.

No madman with a ridiculously big ship.They were to be moved so they wouldn't be harmed when the collector gathered up the rings, The Federation already possessed the rings (and the planet), both being in Federation space.

Smallness is fine if the story makes you care about the stakes. Unfortunately there's virtually nothing that I care about in Insurrection. The stakes are low and uninteresting. That's it's greatest flaw. One single life as a stake can be epic (example:Saving Private Ryan). But this is not the case here.

Insurrection isn't just "small..." It's fucking bland and embarrassing. Thats its greatest sin. You don't make "Masterpiece Society" or "Haven" into major motion pictures for a long-running sci-fi adventure franchise. That's basically what Insurrection was: "Let's make 'Ensigns of Command' into a fucking film!!!" Holy shit, what an awful idea.


And that is why it's a shit movie. It took TNG's bland mediocrity and made it into a major motion picture.

 

[Khan 2.0]

just imagine at some point Berman just putting the stop on the script and going 'yknow this script isn't working. but has potential..' and then hiring Nicolas Meyer to come in and turn it into some Shakespearean/classic literature take on TNG and he rewrites it all back into Heart Of Darkness/Apocalypse Trek that ends up being an absolute classic that gets Patrick Stewart oscar nominated and is the best TNG movie by far (then he comes on board Nemesis to write/direct which steers TNG into 5th and 6th movies)

 

[thribs]

That TNG Dominion War novel would have made a good 9th movie; with Ro Laren and the artificial wormhole

 

[Damian]

That TNG Dominion War novel would have made a good 9th movie; with Ro Laren and the artificial wormhole

Yeah, it's been a while but that was a pretty good novel. Something like that could have been adapted and if I recall correctly it wasn't all space battles. There was a secret mission in involved and it was a high stakes mission.

I mean, that would have made 3 high stakes movies in a row with major repercussions with First Contact and Nemesis. But then even a more light-hearted film like TVH had high stakes so

I just couldn't believe it at the time I saw it. There's a major war going on and the Enterprise was originally on it's way to an archaeological dig. WTF. Who's running Starfleet?

I mean, even if you kept the Insurrection story and had them supposed to be on their way to a war related mission. In a way that would have raised the stakes. The Enterprise is supposed to be engaged in a major war related mission and they divert to the Briar Patch. The consequences would have been much more significant and there probably would have been a time element, that they had to finish in the Briar Patch in a limited amount so they had enough time to stop the Dominion from doing something.

 

[suarezguy]

Well, I can agree with you there. It's certainly annoying that a majority of films portray Earth in some sort of peril. And Star Trek is supposed to be about boldly going and a number of the movies are.....here or near here.

It was a plus that Insurrection didn't involve Earth at all...was it even mentioned? It's one thing I liked about Beyond--no Earth.

With a movie, esp. a sci-fi movie I think the general population wants big though. I think Insurrection was too small.

I think a big, damaging aspect of that is that not only are the stakes just 300 humanlike aliens but also that the villains seem to be just 3 people, one bad and two moderate ... the film would have been a lot better if it conveyed that a lot of Starfleet and the Federation really did support and were supporting the admiral, one way to do that would be too show how Riker persuaded the reluctant Council to stop the plan. Him just doing so offscreen feels like a big cheat.

 

[XCV330]

A gaming joystick only offers 3 degrees of freedom when for complete spacecraft translation and rotation control you would need a device offering 6 degrees of freedom such as a space mouse (http://spacemice.org).

you need 3 axis of control in a spacecraft. Joysticks work just fine for that. It's not theoretical, they are commonly used in spaceships, now. It was a good call, having it in the movie.

Boeing Starliner console with joystick

SpaceX Crew Dragon with joy.. thingy

Apollo CM joystick

The new Orion joystick and how it works:
https://aerospace.honeywell.com/en/products/space/rotational-hand-controller-rhc

Soyuz has one as well, though it is a bit more Atari 2600 looking. most of the time they are not used now as automated docking procedures, and other automatable flight patterns should always be preferable to flying by stick, but if they are needed, they're needed badly and so spaceships still have them and will almost certainly continue to do so.

 

[HaventGotALife]

I should point out another opinion on this thread I'm sure many will disagree with: I did like Nemesis better than Insurrection. Besides having a far more urgent, intense story atmosphere overall, I happen to find cloning/DNA stories far more interesting than fountain-of-youth stories. And it gave the world the rather interesting actor Tom Hardy.

I'm not saying Insurrection is a good movie, but it's not unpleasant to sit through on a rainy day if you have nothing better to do at home. But given a choice, I'd rather watch Nemesis. At the very, very least Nemesis starship/space choreography was beautifully done.

I appreciate both. DS9 argues that the universe is mechanistic, that circumstances create many of our worst demons. TNG has always been more hopeful, that we can choose our better angels.

With that in mind, the Borg and Dominion have kept our hero, Picard, from exploring. The Ba'ku are created for this movie, including the Son'a; it is not the Borg, Romulans, or Klingons, Khan. There are two, unique cultures.

So, if Picard healed after the first Borg invasion by visiting the vineyards of his youth, with people who don't care about his Starfleet career, what would heal him this time, now that Robert and Rene are dead?

The Ba'ku, who choose to be without warp drive because of destruction, and not liking what knowledge did to life. This is not him; it is a different culture. He discovers people who are mindful of the present moment. Basically, a science fiction interpretation of mindfulness, mediation. Meditation creates emotional awareness, helping to heal Picard.

Data learns the joy of being a child, as best he can. He starts this journey by acting righteous because Starfleet has abandoned exploration for exploitation and material gain. Picard soon joins him, putting down his uniform, inviting a Court Martial, to save his way of life. He just fought a war. Why did he do that, if all Starfleet does is abandon every principle he fought to preserve?

The action scenes suck. But, the core of the movie is tremendous. I don't need a rainy day to watch it.

 

[HaventGotALife]

TFF could greatly benefit from a VfX overhaul. I agree entirely.




Fully agreed. Nemesis is leaps-and-bounds a more competent and engaging film that Insurrection.




Smallness is fine if the story makes you care about the stakes. Unfortunately there's virtually nothing that I care about in Insurrection. The stakes are low and uninteresting. That's it's greatest flaw. One single life as a stake can be epic (example:Saving Private Ryan). But this is not the case here.

Insurrection isn't just "small..." It's fucking bland and embarrassing. Thats its greatest sin. You don't make "Masterpiece Society" or "Haven" into major motion pictures for a long-running sci-fi adventure franchise. That's basically what Insurrection was: "Let's make 'Ensigns of Command' into a fucking film!!!" Holy shit, what an awful idea.


And that is why it's a shit movie. It took TNG's bland mediocrity and made it into a major motion picture.

Do you know Picard? Q summarizes TNG, and the 24th Century quite nicely:

"You are about to move into areas of the Galaxy containing wonders beyond imagination...and terrors to freeze your soul!...It's not safe out here! It's wonderous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross, but it's not for the timid."

Jean-Luc Picard is a "dreamer...imaginatively." Rene is the Jean-Luc of his youth, the man who looked to the stars and dreamed of new worlds. Why Rene shows up after the Borg is because Jean-Luc is questioning everything he has done He found wonders, but his soul froze when he was forced to destroy 39 ships and 11,000 Federation citizens (Drumhead) as a member of the Borg. How anyone can appreciate Shinzon as Picard's dark half, and trash Insurrection as "uninteresting" is beyond me.

In Generations, Picard struggles not just with loss of Rene and Robert (his solace shall his soul freeze, again), but with age (I realized their are fewer days ahead than there are behind). He has discovered a fountain of youth. His dreams, in the stars, were channeled into being a Starfleet Captain. Starfleet is betraying the principles at its founding by destroying a culture, one that Picard finds heals him from playing Ahab during First Contact, and ordering men into battle that never returned, off-screen, in the war.

So, with all this loss and trauma, he is searching for peace. He finds it with people who do not value him as an explorer. Like his father, brother, his wife, and nephew.

Ensigns of Command? Led by the duckblind, I see. This is "Family." Data gets back to a simpler time by imagining what it is like to be a child. The child, told to mistrust Data, remains curious about him. Data saves the boy many times over and earns the respect of the Ba'ku. Think "Family." Rene and Jean-Luc's curiosity as their fathers warn to not be curious, to keep them safe.

The stakes are merely The Federation's soul versus 300 year lifespans and an end to disease. The stakes are Picard and crew committing crimes to save exploration. The reason for entering the Briar Patch was just to save Data, who starts his own moral pickle about the consequences were he to go rogue.

And with one piece of dialogue "The Diplomatic Corps is busy with Dominion negotiations..." the war is over, or at least, at cease-fire. Blame Paramount for ruining the mystery, and skating it for release before DS9's final season ends.

This isn't a script problem, outside of action. It's not a stakes problem. It's a marketing and comprehension problem. And, if you ever go through trauma, and I hope you don't, you will find this movie healing. As you have Star Trek fandom, I would suggest watching it. This is how to heal, when the Federation isn't threatening it.