Just watched all of DS9 in a week.

[DevilEyes]

Well...to be fair, Nerys...The Council picked Dukat as its liason to the military.... So I wouldn't get my hopes up as to what might've been.

And you know for sure that they had many more suitable and willing candidates that they overlooked? How about Gul Jasad...Gul Danar... At least Dukat is smart, and can carry a conversation without yeling at people. Who else - Legate Parn... Gul Madred... Hmmm...

Seriously... in RL, when a new democratic government tries to establish itself in still turbulent circumstances, after a long period in an authoritarian regime, it is not exactly unusual for it to look for allies in the old power structures - the military, the police - if it is to survive at all. But any ally with enough power and importance will have been ia big part of what the former regie... Naturally, chances are, most of these people won't exactly have democratic backgrounds, morally unblemished personalities, or pure motives; but in politics, you have to compromise. Cutting all ties to everyone who has ever been involved in anything unsavory that the past regime has done, punishing then all for any past crimes, sounds wondreful in speeches and rallies, but it is usually not realistically possible, especially if you don't want a civil war and major bloodshed, after which you might very likely lose. This can leave a nasty taste in your mouth - I should know - but it's sadly unavoidable. The question is, however, how far do you go with the compromise with the old power structures and the unsavory characters who tend to be most influential in them... It's a dangerous game that can backfire! But I'm getting off-topic here...

Anyway, I seem to remember that, back in the day, Sisko and Kira did not mind using Dukat as an ally on few occasions, either. So I guess that means they suck, too.

 

[Bluesteel]

^Yeah, they just can't REVEAL themselves to non-warp races....

But anyway--my compliments, Ensign, for watching ALL THAT in a week.

The best I could do was watch TOS first season in a week....

So...outta curiosity...what were your thoughts on Jadzia's death and Ezri's suceeding her?

My thoughts? Someone should have killed Jadzia when she was on the transport to DS9 for the first time. God I can't stand her. The constant smiling. The bad jokes and the repetitive mentioning of Curzon. After a while I just wanted to shout out
"STFU ABOUT CURZON AND STOP SMILING"

Ezri was a whole different cup of tea. She was annoying at first but then the writers got a groove for her. I actually liked her. Her romance with Bashir was better handled then the one with Jadzia and Worf. I feel really sorry for Nicole DeBoer. Other having such a fantastic Dutch name she was only there for a year.

 

[Navaros]

My thoughts? Someone should have killed Jadzia when she was on the transport to DS9 for the first time. God I can't stand her. The constant smiling. The bad jokes and the repetitive mentioning of Curzon. After a while I just wanted to shout out
"STFU ABOUT CURZON AND STOP SMILING"

I concur with you about this 100%. Also, I find her smug attitude to be extremely inherently annoying.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

DevilEyes--As far as I could tell, Gul Macet is about the only decent-tempered gul that could've been sent as liaison. But, I can see why maybe the writers didn't want to do that given that some fans would be likely to confuse Macet and Dukat.

(Tekeny Ghemor was already exiled or he would've automatically been THE best choice.)

 

[Jono]

How is it 'interference' if the official government of that species has ASKED for help? Which I believe the Detapa Council did. It's quite different from the Klingon succession crisis, where just one faction VYING to be in the government asked for help...this is the legitimate government of Cardassia asking for Federation involvement.

The Federation has no obligations to help the Cardassians militarily. The Klingons also asked for Federation help and they had a far stronger case for the Federation to do so due to their alliance.

Back on topic: Wow, all in a week is pretty hardcore. When I went through the series from start to finish 2 to 3 days was the quickest I managed to get through one season alone.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

From where I stand, the Klingons actually had LESS moral authority in that particular situation than the Cardassians did. It was the Klingons who were interfering in Cardassian governmental affairs, who were trying to override the will of the Cardassian people--who had knocked Central Command down several pegs and reinstalled the Detapa Council--out of whatever unproven suspicions they had. They were the ones in an unprovoked war.

To me, the Klingon alliance was merely one of political convenience, anyway. What moral standing did they have, since they continued conquering worlds during their tine allied with the Federation (I believe Krios was one known example of this), and presumably had not changed their ways? To me, a Federation alliance shows they're condoning that sort of thing.

The Cardassians...obviously they'd had a BAD past, too, and recently. I'm not diminishing that in the slightest. But unlike the Klingons, who were continuing with the status quo, and whose behavior towards the Cardassians unequivocally demonstrated that fact, the Cardassians were actually taking steps to change. Properly encouraged and allowed to grow in that direction, they could have ended up becoming an ally that WOULD actually be more morally conscionable than the Klingons. Did they need a lot of help? Yeah. But it could've actually happened.

To me, this is just one more demonstration of the Federation talking a big game about its vaunted morals and then going for expediency in practice.

 

[DevilEyes]

^ All very true. It's amazing that people actually defend the Klingon position. (probably just as a knee-jerk reaction: "Cardies are bad guys, Klingons are cool now because TNG told us so" ) Just imagine it happening in real life. It's absolutely incompatible with the proclaimed values of the Federation.

 

[Odo You Didn't!]

3: Why did the writers feel the need to ruin Ferengis? DS9 Ferengis were so cool in that they were greedy. Their whole life and economy was based on pure and unadulterated greed with a touch of misogyny. Some of the best moments on DS9 was finding how ludicrous Ferengis can be. Praying to a supernatural account and praising his greed. Bribing him to get into Heaven made up of Latinum.

But then for some reason they felt the need to make them more Federation. Nog became ashamed of being Ferengi. Rom imitated Humans and Moogie became the champion of equality. Almost has if they were echoing Eddingtons word. The Federation was culturally assimilating the Ferengis.

Just wanted to pick up on this, I just re-watched the episode where Nog asked Sisko to recommend him to Starfleet, and his reason for wanting to sign up was because he didn't want to end up like his father, who worked for a pittance for a brother who showed him little appreciation and also bopped him on the head every now and again. I don't think he was ashamed of his culture, I think he felt that his father was downtrodden and he wanted to make something of himself, rather than accepting it the way Rom did at first. Obviously Rom goes on to work with hyoo-mons; I think he looked up to them because they provided him with a better living and more respect, which was probably why he wanted to eat the same breakfast as Chief O'Brien - a hero of his. I felt like it was an evolution for the Ferengi as they were portrayed as so base before. They're a new generation who had values and respect and they applied that acquisitional work-ethic to something more selfless than making a profit - I really loved how they progressed throughout the series

 

[DevilEyes]

3: Why did the writers feel the need to ruin Ferengis? DS9 Ferengis were so cool in that they were greedy. Their whole life and economy was based on pure and unadulterated greed with a touch of misogyny. Some of the best moments on DS9 was finding how ludicrous Ferengis can be. Praying to a supernatural account and praising his greed. Bribing him to get into Heaven made up of Latinum.

But then for some reason they felt the need to make them more Federation. Nog became ashamed of being Ferengi. Rom imitated Humans and Moogie became the champion of equality. Almost has if they were echoing Eddingtons word. The Federation was culturally assimilating the Ferengis.

Just wanted to pick up on this, I just re-watched the episode where Nog asked Sisko to recommend him to Starfleet, and his reason for wanting to sign up was because he didn't want to end up like his father, who worked for a pittance for a brother who showed him little appreciation and also bopped him on the head every now and again. I don't think he was ashamed of his culture, I think he felt that his father was downtrodden and he wanted to make something of himself, rather than accepting it the way Rom did at first. Obviously Rom goes on to work with hyoo-mons; I think he looked up to them because they provided him with a better living and more respect, which was probably why he wanted to eat the same breakfast as Chief O'Brien - a hero of his. I felt like it was an evolution for the Ferengi as they were portrayed as so base before. They're a new generation who had values and respect and they applied that acquisitional work-ethic to something more selfless than making a profit - I really loved how they progressed throughout the series

Yea, I forgot to address the Ferengi issue. Making all members of a race THE SAME and nothing more than a one-dimensional stereotype, does NOT make a well-developed alien race. It's silly and highly unrealistic, and does not create interesting characters.

Making members of a race more varied, showing that, whatever their culture is, the race consists of many different INDIVIDUALS, is not "ruining" them, it is saving them from becoming silly unconvincing caricatures.

 

[TheGodBen]

From where I stand, the Klingons actually had LESS moral authority in that particular situation than the Cardassians did. It was the Klingons who were interfering in Cardassian governmental affairs, who were trying to override the will of the Cardassian people--who had knocked Central Command down several pegs and reinstalled the Detapa Council--out of whatever unproven suspicions they had. They were the ones in an unprovoked war.

I don't think that anybody is defending the Klingons for starting the war, they were quite clearly in the wrong which is why the UFP went as far as to end their alliance and send a ship to rescue the Cardassian government.

But what reason did the Federation have to get involved in the war on the side of the Cardassians? The Cardassians had been a thorn in the Federation's side for the last half-century and they were constantly breaking their ceasefires with the UFP in order to conquer more territory. The Depata Council retaking control of the government could have just been another Cardassian ploy to invade Federation colony worlds, nobody had any way of knowing whether the revolt was for real or not.

Meanwhile, the Klingons had been fairly honourable and had stuck to their alliance with the Federation for 80 years and assisted the Federation against the Romulan threat (such as in The Defector).

 

[Rush Limborg]

^See, the point is, folks, that this was a BIG grey area. If you think about it, the Empire really had a legit motive: I mean, a civlian uprising against what was perhaps the most powerful militaristic government in the Quadrant--sorry, but that sounds VERY suspicious--ESPECIALLY considering what the Founder told Odo and Garak in "The Die Is Cast": with the Union out of the way, there's one less major power to put a stop to the Dominion.

Now, let me make this clear to Nerys and Co.--THIS DOES NOT MEAN that I condone what the Empire did! Gowron DID go too far with the invasion. He panicked, and acted far too rashly. (And of course, he was being advised by the Martok-changeling, but that's another story....)

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

And yet we've KNOWN this uprising could come for years before it happened. The Federation should've had some very good intelligence courtesy of Natima Lang and especially Tekeny Ghemor in that regard. Remember, Ghemor--who would've been in a position to know the strength of the movement--warned that it would NOT die with him, and he truly seemed to believe Cardassia was on the verge of something. And then, once the Obsidian Order suffered such a blow...the opportunity was there. Couple with that any sigint and humanoid intelligence on the ground, and the Federation should've been able to come to the right conclusion.

That's why there was NOTHING suspicious about it--or at least, there shouldn't have been from a Federation perspective, given the major intelligence breaks we KNOW they'd had in that regard.

 

[arasam22]

wow, i watched the whole thing over a month, and that still felt like WAY rushed.

 

[Rush Limborg]

That's why there was NOTHING suspicious about it--or at least, there shouldn't have been from a Federation perspective, given the major intelligence breaks we KNOW they'd had in that regard.

I'd think Starfleet Command made it a point to keep the existence of the dissident movement secret--so as to protect the lives of the rebels.

Thus, one could say the Klingons had no such intel--and were acting on what they had.

Again, not condoning their actions. Just trying to understand their point of view.

 

[Bluesteel]

3: Why did the writers feel the need to ruin Ferengis? DS9 Ferengis were so cool in that they were greedy. Their whole life and economy was based on pure and unadulterated greed with a touch of misogyny. Some of the best moments on DS9 was finding how ludicrous Ferengis can be. Praying to a supernatural account and praising his greed. Bribing him to get into Heaven made up of Latinum.

But then for some reason they felt the need to make them more Federation. Nog became ashamed of being Ferengi. Rom imitated Humans and Moogie became the champion of equality. Almost has if they were echoing Eddingtons word. The Federation was culturally assimilating the Ferengis.

Just wanted to pick up on this, I just re-watched the episode where Nog asked Sisko to recommend him to Starfleet, and his reason for wanting to sign up was because he didn't want to end up like his father, who worked for a pittance for a brother who showed him little appreciation and also bopped him on the head every now and again. I don't think he was ashamed of his culture, I think he felt that his father was downtrodden and he wanted to make something of himself, rather than accepting it the way Rom did at first. Obviously Rom goes on to work with hyoo-mons; I think he looked up to them because they provided him with a better living and more respect, which was probably why he wanted to eat the same breakfast as Chief O'Brien - a hero of his. I felt like it was an evolution for the Ferengi as they were portrayed as so base before. They're a new generation who had values and respect and they applied that acquisitional work-ethic to something more selfless than making a profit - I really loved how they progressed throughout the series

Yea, I forgot to address the Ferengi issue. Making all members of a race THE SAME and nothing more than a one-dimensional stereotype, does NOT make a well-developed alien race. It's silly and highly unrealistic, and does not create interesting characters.

Making members of a race more varied, showing that, whatever their culture is, the race consists of many different INDIVIDUALS, is not "ruining" them, it is saving them from becoming silly unconvincing caricatures.

That's something I normally I agree with. I hate it when people say "Your strong. You must have klingon blood in you" . That's like going to a black kid good at maths and telling him that he must have Korean blood in him.

But the fact is that Rom has previously apperead to be stuck with Ferengi values. He even took Nog out of school and kept told him not to hang around with Jake.



The worst thing was Roms wedding. It such a delibrate pisstake. Leeta wants a traditional Bajoran wedding. Rom is acquiescen. He even wears the earing and reads Bajoran Prophicies. How ever when it's Leetas turn to accept Ferengi value a prenup. She gets angry and refuses. They only get back together when Rom gives up his Ferengi idea.

That smacks of cultural assimilation by the majority into others.

 

[Thor Damar]

Well Worf did have another rather more idiotic view on the Klingons reasoning:

"There are many Klingons who say we have been at peace too long. That the Empire must expand to survive. Fear of the Dominion only gives my people an excuse to do what they where born to do. To fight. And to conquer"

Thus were millions, nay, billions of lives wasted

 

[DevilEyes]

The worst thing was Roms wedding. It such a delibrate pisstake. Leeta wants a traditional Bajoran wedding. Rom is acquiescen. He even wears the earing and reads Bajoran Prophicies. How ever when it's Leetas turn to accept Ferengi value a prenup. She gets angry and refuses. They only get back together when Rom gives up his Ferengi idea.

That smacks of cultural assimilation by the majority into others.

That smacks of one specific couple's dynamic and way of dealing with things. I don't see how it is representative of "cultural assimilation of the majority into others".

There are always people who reject their culture or some of its aspects. It's their right. That's the crucial fact that so many Trek fans seem to miss. Every race and culture is made of INDIVIDUALS. Putting a "culture" over an individual and assuming that every individual that belongs to this or that culture must be basically THE SAME is very scary, IMO. I find it very weird to assume that, if one or two individuals choose to live their lives differently from what their culture dictates, it constitutes "cultural assimilation of the majority into others". Sounds like something a nationalistic isolationist would say.

In fact, I would find it very, very strange if EVERY SINGLE individual in a race/culture adhered to its cultural norms without being forced to... and I think it's actually impossible in any culture other than the Borg collective.

 

[Bluesteel]

The worst thing was Roms wedding. It such a delibrate pisstake. Leeta wants a traditional Bajoran wedding. Rom is acquiescen. He even wears the earing and reads Bajoran Prophicies. How ever when it's Leetas turn to accept Ferengi value a prenup. She gets angry and refuses. They only get back together when Rom gives up his Ferengi idea.

That smacks of cultural assimilation by the majority into others.

That smacks of one specific couple's dynamic and way of dealing with things. I don't see how it is representative of "cultural assimilation of the majority into others".

There are always people who reject their culture, either entirely out of their own or under the influence of others. It's their right. That's the crucial fact that so many Trek fans seem to miss. Every race and culture is made of INDIVIDUALS. Putting a "culture" over an individual and assuming that every individual that belongs to this or that culture must be basically THE SAME is very scary, IMO. I find it very weird to assume that, if one or two individuals choose to live their lives differently from what their culture dictates, it constitutes "cultural assimilation of the majority into others". Sounds like something a nationalistic isolationist would say.

Yes but the Rom that married Leeta was compelelty different from the Rom. The man took his out of School so that he could be a good "Ferengi" (which doesn't make sense since education = more money). He told his son not to hang around with Humans because they are to different from Ferengis.

Between stopping his son from association with Hew-mons to getting married in a Bajoran wedding something did change.

Your point is very valid but we've have seen Rom be part of the "typical" Ferengi society. So in this specific case it wouldn't be valid.

 

[DevilEyes]

The worst thing was Roms wedding. It such a delibrate pisstake. Leeta wants a traditional Bajoran wedding. Rom is acquiescen. He even wears the earing and reads Bajoran Prophicies. How ever when it's Leetas turn to accept Ferengi value a prenup. She gets angry and refuses. They only get back together when Rom gives up his Ferengi idea.

That smacks of cultural assimilation by the majority into others.

That smacks of one specific couple's dynamic and way of dealing with things. I don't see how it is representative of "cultural assimilation of the majority into others".

There are always people who reject their culture, either entirely out of their own or under the influence of others. It's their right. That's the crucial fact that so many Trek fans seem to miss. Every race and culture is made of INDIVIDUALS. Putting a "culture" over an individual and assuming that every individual that belongs to this or that culture must be basically THE SAME is very scary, IMO. I find it very weird to assume that, if one or two individuals choose to live their lives differently from what their culture dictates, it constitutes "cultural assimilation of the majority into others". Sounds like something a nationalistic isolationist would say.

Yes but the Rom that married Leeta was compelelty different from the Rom. The man took his out of School so that he could be a good "Ferengi" (which doesn't make sense since education = more money). He told his son not to hang around with Humans because they are to different from Ferengis.

Between stopping his son from association with Hew-mons to getting married in a Bajoran wedding something did change.

Your point is very valid but we've have seen Rom be part of the "typical" Ferengi society. So in this specific case it wouldn't be valid.

The old Rom was not honoring Ferengi culture because he really appreciated it or was genuinely proud of it or anything, he did it because 1) he was used to and didn't know different, and 2) he was under the influence of his brother, who was also his boss and someone with much stronger personality. But throughout all this, Rom was never successful by Ferengi standards, and Ferengis, including his brother, despised him as stupid and incapable of conducting business successfully and earning profit. He was never going to make it as a typical Ferengi.

What changed later on is that Rom came more in touch with non-Ferengis and their values, but also realized that he had choices other than being a typical Ferengi. And he realized that he could be an excellent engineer, instead of a bad businessman. The choice was obvious. His son's career choice probably influenced him, as well as Leeta and his idolization of O'Brien. And since Rom is a rather impressionable person, it's not surprising if his habits and views changed under these new influences.

 

[TheGodBen]

Rom pulled Nog out of school because the Grand Nagus was visiting the station and when he found out that Nog was being thought by a hewmon female Rom acted so as not to get the Nagus up his ass. He wasn't adhering to the cultural constraints of his people, he was deferring to the authority of his people's leader.