Just Started SNW RE: Uhura

[evilchumlee]

Assuming that there's only one M'Benga.

That seems like a massive stretch.

Which is a completely reasonable nursing career.

Absolutely.

I'm questioning is if it was the desirable outcome for Chapel, not if such a career is reasonable. A career as a construction worker is also completely reasonable, but probably not what Chapel wanted.

Well, no.

People change, at least in my experience. I think they're different from.where they will be in TOS but not different enough to say they are different people.

People absolutely do change... but they tend to have two personalities at the same time.

Paramount has made it abundantly clear, these are the characters from TOS, and these characters will be the characters from TOS. Not "These are the characters from TOS, but with different personalities because that was the 60's."

Granted, is Paramount going to say they're the TOS characters and just... probably not actually make them the TOS characters? Yes. Paramount is trying to desperately to have their cake and eat it too... they want to ignore TOS, and will do everything they possibly can to ignore TOS without actually saying they're going to ignore TOS.

I'd have so much more respect for them if they just committed to it.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

That seems like a massive stretch.

No more of a stretch than a 39-year-old actor (who looks older than 39) playing an at-least-5-years-younger version of a character created by a then-27-year-old actor (who looked younger than 27). Or a CMO stepping down and being just a staff doctor, 5 years later.

Writers' Guides are not canon. "Word of God" is not canon. Scenes cut from the script without ever getting shot are not canon. Scenes that are shot, but end up on the cutting room floor, are not canon.

It is enough that Joseph M'Benga, played by Babs Olusanmokun, is Pike's CMO after Boyce retires. What difference does it make whether it is he, or a relative of his, who ends up as a staff doctor under McCoy, (and according to Jean Lorrah, who gets recruited into Starfleet after Kirk and McCoy take notice of him during the events of The Vulcan Academy Murders) sometime after Kirk takes over the Enterprise?

 

[fireproof78]

I'm questioning is if it was the desirable outcome for Chapel, not if such a career is reasonable. A career as a construction worker is also completely reasonable, but probably not what Chapel wanted.

As someone who has had massive career changes and side jobs despite knowing what I wanted since 15 I can say that Chapel's choices make sense to me.

People absolutely do change... but they tend to have two personalities at the same time.

I mean, I guess but I don't see the personalities as different.

 

[Nerys Myk]

We're about 5 years away from TOS, where she is a nurse. TMP is about another 5 years from there.

She was a nurse for roughly twenty years or so before getting her MD, which is we take TAS into account, had to have happened in 2270.

There are other contextual factors though, so it could 100% NOT be the picture i'm painting. Chapel may not have originally actually wanted to be an MD... she was previously worked more in research, so MD may have been a later career change. She leaves Enterprise, gets married to Korby, and then eventually comes back after he disappears.

So she may not even have really pursued becoming an MD until she came back, 2265-66ish.

Still not sure what the problem with Chapel being a nurse for five, ten or twenty years is. McCoy was a doctor for almost a century. Should he be something else? Nurse isn't a stepping stone to being a doctor. It's a separate profession. Chapel seems to wear two hats, She's a nurse and a medical researcher whose field of interest is archeological medicine.
TMP takes place only a couple of years after TOS. For Chapel to be an MD she must have been studying for it while serving on the Enterprise during TOS.
Chapel wasn't married to Korby. He was her fiancé.

Right... agreed...

But it does jive with the two conversations.

"It's good that SNW is a prequel to TOS and TOS still happens" vs. "these characters are different from the TOS versions".

It's one or the other.

That's not how it works.

 

[fireproof78]

What difference does it make whether it is he,

Because I want to learn about TOS M'Benga.

 

[evilchumlee]

I mean, I guess but I don't see the personalities as different.

I don't either, for the most part.

I was griping with people saying that they want the personalities to be different from their TOS portrayals, and don't want to see the SNW characters take on those traits.

The character I really have any issue with compared to how they should be in about 5 years is Scotty, and he's had exactly one appearance... so i'm comfortable with the jury still being out on that one.

It is enough that Joseph M'Benga, played by Babs Olusanmokun, is Pike's CMO after Boyce retires. What difference does it make whether it is he, or a relative of his, who ends up as a staff doctor under McCoy, (and according to Jean Lorrah, who gets recruited into Starfleet after Kirk and McCoy take notice of him during the events of The Vulcan Academy Murders) sometime after Kirk takes over the Enterprise?

There's some stuff to unpack here. On one hand, you're saying don't count the writers guides as canon... agreed... but then ALSO bring up background info from what i'm assuming is a novel?

It's also... strange that there would be a Joseph M'Benga who served on Pike's Enterprise and then... just... a different Joseph M'Benga who later serves under Kirk. Like, why? And in that case, couldn't that be everyone? Nyota Uhura leaves the Enterprise after Pike and her twin sister Nyota Uhura joins for Kirk, while James Kirk from SNW goes to do other stuff while some other, completely unrelated James Kirk comes to command Enterprise.

Hell, the USS Enterprise from SNW is a different USS Enterprise from TOS, and Pike's nephew, Christopher Pike, flies around around in Enterprise while Kirk flies around in Enterprise...

It's just... nonsensical.

That's not how it works.

How is that even possible?

There's only one way for it possibly work.

Paramount says TOS happens. So. TOS happens. Whatever, fine maybe it looks different because of TV magic, but at the very least the characters and events are the same?

Or does TOS happen, but TOS doesn't happen?

 

[fireproof78]

was griping with people saying that they want the personalities to be different from their TOS portrayals, and don't want to see the SNW characters take on those traits.

Is there a substantial difference though? If one goes by trait theory, traits can be expressed in different environments at different times during different stages of life. So, even if they have some traits from TOS, not all of those mean they will always be that way.

but at the very least the characters and events are the same?

Right now, I say yes.

 

[evilchumlee]

Is there a substantial difference though? If one goes by trait theory, traits can be expressed in different environments at different times during different stages of life. So, even if they have some traits from TOS, not all of those mean they will always be that way.

I can agree with that. But if we progress on in the story and get to the time period of TOS, the traits those characters have at that time should be... the traits the characters have at that time.

Right now, I say yes.

It's kind of an odd answer.

It seems like we are getting to the point where Paramount steadfastly stands behind TOS existing in the universe.

But. It looks different. People act different. Different events happen. Basically, TOS doesn't happen, but TOS totally happens?

 

[fireproof78]

can agree with that. But if we progress on in the story and get to the time period of TOS, the traits those characters have at that time should be... the traits the characters have at that time.

We shall see.

But. It looks different. People act different. Different events happen. Basically, TOS doesn't happen, but TOS totally happens?

Because it didn't literally happen. The events happened, and the characters were there. But, TOS, as it stands to me, is a dramatization of Kirk's logs, not a documentary evidence or historical record.

 

[Nyotarules]

Totally disagree, But of course respect your opinion. I feel when doing a prequel of a epic series like TOS, the main characters in said prequel should at the least, look somewhat like those they are portraying.

All those actors playing Hamlet, King Lear, Richard III, Romeo and Juliet since the 16th century and none of them look alike.
Shame, I tell ya, shame!

 

[evilchumlee]

Because it didn't literally happen. The events happened, and the characters were there. But, TOS, as it stands to me, is a dramatization of Kirk's logs, not a documentary evidence or historical record.

You're entitled to your interpretation, but Paramount has been clear... TOS happens.

It's not a dramatization. It's not an alternate timeline. It's not "soft canon". TOS, in it's entirety, is "Prime Universe".

All those actors playing Hamlet, King Lear, Richard III, Romeo and Juliet since the 16th century and none of them look alike.
Shame, I tell ya, shame!

I was not aware all of the productions of Hamlet, King Lear, etc. were all stated to be a single, shared universe.

 

[fireproof78]

You're entitled to your interpretation, but Paramount has been clear... TOS happens.

It's not a dramatization. It's not an alternate timeline. It's not "soft canon". TOS, in it's entirety, is "Prime Universe".

Then that is what it is. TOS happened, and SNW leads in to it. James R. Kirk should be taking command soon.

Any visual differences are just part of the acting. Again, I don't take it literally. I can't. That is a path of madness to me.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

The novel reference was an aside. That's why it's in parentheses, and prefaced with "according to Jean Lorrah." Of course it's not canonical that M'Benga was recruited sometime after "Journey to Babel" in the aftermath of Jean Lorrah's novels, any more than it's canonical that he suffers a nervous breakdown after unwittingly assassinating several ambassadors in Kathleen Sky's Death's Angel.

But neither is it, at least as of SNW 2x06, canonical that there's only one Dr. M'Benga in Starfleet. It's not that uncommon for families with one doctor to have more than one; I've already mentioned that I happen to know a retired gynecologist whose uncle was a general surgeon.

 

[fireproof78]

The novel reference was an aside. That's why it's in parentheses, and prefaced with "according to Jean Lorrah." Of course it's not canonical that M'Benga was recruited sometime after "Journey to Babel" in the aftermath of Jean Lorrah's novels, any more than it's canonical that he suffers a nervous breakdown after unwittingly assassinating several ambassadors in Kathleen Sky's Death's Angel.

But neither is it, at least as of SNW 2x06, canonical that there's only one Dr. M'Benga in Starfleet. It's not that uncommon for families with one doctor to have more than one; I've already mentioned that I happen to know a retired gynecologist whose uncle was a general surgeon.

I stated why my preference is for one Dr. M'Benga.

If it happens to be a family business then so be it. That would not be my first, second or third choice.

 

[Tiran O'Saurus]

I just feel like I should mention that, according to a personnel file, CMO Joesph M'Benga has a brother named Nicholas M'Benga. TOS also never gives us its Dr. M'Benga's first name. It's possible they'll pull a switcheroo. I really doubt that, though. Choosing to use M'Benga in SNW was deliberate on the producers' part, and I imagine they have an idea of how he'll be replaced by McCoy. (I do expect them to retcon Dr. Piper, though. We'll definitely go straight from M'Benga to McCoy.)

 

[Nyotarules]

There is nothing canonical to indicate that Chapel was ever "demoted for McCoy to return."

TMP gives the impression that McCoy took over the CMO role on his return. If that is the case, Kirk did a disservice to Chapel.

You're entitled to your interpretation, but Paramount has been clear... TOS happens.

It's not a dramatization. It's not an alternate timeline. It's not "soft canon". TOS, in it's entirety, is "Prime Universe".



I was not aware all of the productions of Hamlet, King Lear, etc. were all stated to be a single, shared universe.

They are the same characters played by different actors over 400 years of acting.

As for Gooding as Uhura, the actor does a great job with the character but considering Uhura is going to be sitting in that chair for the next 30 years, they should have created a new charactor for the actor.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

TMP gives the impression that McCoy took over the CMO role on his return.

UHURA: Captain, Starfleet reports our last six crew members ready to beam up . . . (puzzled) . . . but one of them is refusing to step into the transporter.

I see nothing in TMP that implies that Chapel was the new CMO; just that she had gotten an MD.

 

[Nyotarules]

I see nothing in TMP that implies that Chapel was the new CMO; just that she had gotten an MD.

Well someone had to be the new CMO and it was not McCoy.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't either, for the most part.

I was griping with people saying that they want the personalities to be different from their TOS portrayals, and don't want to see the SNW characters take on those traits.

The character I really have any issue with compared to how they should be in about 5 years is Scotty, and he's had exactly one appearance... so i'm comfortable with the jury still being out on that one.



There's some stuff to unpack here. On one hand, you're saying don't count the writers guides as canon... agreed... but then ALSO bring up background info from what i'm assuming is a novel?

It's also... strange that there would be a Joseph M'Benga who served on Pike's Enterprise and then... just... a different Joseph M'Benga who later serves under Kirk. Like, why? And in that case, couldn't that be everyone? Nyota Uhura leaves the Enterprise after Pike and her twin sister Nyota Uhura joins for Kirk, while James Kirk from SNW goes to do other stuff while some other, completely unrelated James Kirk comes to command Enterprise.

Hell, the USS Enterprise from SNW is a different USS Enterprise from TOS, and Pike's nephew, Christopher Pike, flies around around in Enterprise while Kirk flies around in Enterprise...

It's just... nonsensical.



How is that even possible?

There's only one way for it possibly work.

Paramount says TOS happens. So. TOS happens. Whatever, fine maybe it looks different because of TV magic, but at the very least the characters and events are the same?

Or does TOS happen, but TOS doesn't happen?

Yes, but not every single word is in continuity. That’s true during TOS as well as after it. It’s why we have James T. Kirk and not James R. Kirk. It’s why Spock is a Vulcan and not a Vulcanian. It’s why the Enterprise is a Federation ship and not an Earth ship.
Fiction is mutable.

 

[evilchumlee]

They are the same characters played by different actors over 400 years of acting.

Right, but my point is none of those performances are intended to be in continuity with each other.

SNW is explicitly stated by its creators to be in continuity with TOS. They tend to be actively defensive about it.

Like, it's ok for Uhura from Star Trek '09 to be completely different. It's not in continuity with anything.

SNW Uhura and TOS Uhura are the same exact character. They're the same person.

As for Gooding as Uhura, the actor does a great job with the character but considering Uhura is going to be sitting in that chair for the next 30 years, they should have created a new charactor for the actor.

Uhura definitely does other things and is promoted in kind. We're a bit skewed in perception because we see her at communications... which in all reality is an incredibly important position and seemingly similar to Ops in the 24th century... but she's definitely on other assignments. She makes Commander by at least 2285 and appears to be attached to Starfleet Academy by then.

2287 to 2293 is up in the air. We have no idea what the Enterprise-A is doing, but it seems odd if it was just doing normal starship things, given it's senior officers are essentially all Captains and Commanders... I would bet money on Enterprise-A being relegated largely to ambassadorial / ceremonial type duty. It's just a prestige ship.

PIC throws Uhura a bone, she makes Captain by 2301.

There is a part of me that agrees though, for several reasons. She does very well with the character, but I feel like she could do even better given something original. And as much as i'm totally in on nostalgia bait and fanservice, I honestly could do without as much as they try to do in SNW. Uhura really didn't need to be there. Gooding could just as easily have been a new character doing awesome things. It's fine that she's there and it is nice to see Uhura getting more backstory overall