Just re-watched The Valiant. Reminded me of Star Trek 2009...

[infinix]

If Watters and the crew was successful in destroying that Dominion battleship, is there a snow ball's chance in hell that Star Fleet would actually make him a full captain and give him the Valiant?

Before you guys say that Kirk saved Earth and Watters only destroyed a single ship, let's not forget that Watters was able to keep the ship and crew together for 8 months behind enemy lines fighting *gorilla* warfare. Before Watters got the ship destroyed, it could be argued that he had more first hand command experience Kirk.

*guerrilla* I laughed at myself on this one...

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

gorilla warfare

We need a spinoff focusing on gorilla warfare.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I think I'd go bananas if that happened.

 

[happydave]

 

[RyuRoots]

But addressing the question at hand, no. Frankly, I think it's idiotic that Kirk was promoted to Captain in Star Trek XI and I attribute that to maybe Starfleet being insane in the divergent timeline. Watters may have very well gotten a promotion to maybe full Lt. if everything went according to plan, but Captain? No way. He had experience and until they got too cocky, a good head for command. But as the end of the ep shows, he didn't have the wisdom or reservation to be a good CO. Being a good captain requires a lot of things, and I think life experience that these cadets simply didn't have yet was one of those things.

 

[doublegoodprole]

The Starfleet of the late 24th century avoids risk whenever possible and is very, very serious business. The Starfleet of the new timeline only does things for the lulz (see: sending the fleet away from all the action).

 

[TheGodBen]

Frankly, I think it's idiotic that Kirk was promoted to Captain in Star Trek XI and I attribute that to maybe Starfleet being insane in the divergent timeline.

I think that Starfleet in the JJverse is headed up by a council of gorillas.

I think that Valiant is a good example of why I don't feel any connection to Trek '09. Because my Star Trek already did that story and came up with a wildly different conclusion to Trek '09; an inexperienced cadet with a large ego that engenders a cult of personality is a bad thing, not something to be admired. That's the Star Trek I enjoy and love, the optimistic yet cynical Star Trek.

 

[Anwar]

I too think that it was a stupid idea to make Kirk a Captain at the end of Trek 09. They should have given him his commission, some medals and maybe a 2-rank promotion to full Lt instead of Ensign or something.

 

[infinix]

On the original subject, yeah, there are people that defend the end of ST 09 all the time, but in reality, it is nothing short of indefensible. The argument that "We always knew him as Captain Kirk so he should be Captain Kirk" is nonsense. We always knew Spock to be unemotional and even keeled. But that obviously wasn't the case. Since this is a reboot, and since it will obviously have sequels, make a story out of it. Have Kirk make captain in the sequel.

On a different subject. IF there were a series made about gorilla warfare (founght by Starfleet, NOT actual gorillas) Which ship should we follow and what would be the premise of the series? We have to make sure it doesn't have the VOY feel.

 

[Bishop76]

Just a heads up, it's guerrilla warfare, not gorilla.

Though promoting Kirk to Captain in ST09 was ridiculous, it really doesn't matter. It was all about getting him to the right place so that we can go forward from there. It's an origin movie and it's set up to get everyone to their proper place. Most people don't want to watch another origin movie where he finally gets to be a captain. Audiences just want to see everyone in their proper roles in the next film and go from there.

 

[Anwar]

They could've at least done a time jump or something at the end, the way it is now just makes Kirk seem like a punk who got a lucky break.

I mean sure, that may have been what happened in TOS but at least we didn't have to SEE it...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't think nuKirk is anything like Tim Watters. Kirk may be brash and cocky, but in a good way. His heart is in the right place - he wants to do what's good for the Federation and would sacrifice himself if necessary. Watters, OTOH, was just an egotistical jackass who wanted to keep his own command at any cost. Plus, Watters bought into all that Red Squad crap, which Kirk would never have done.

Plus, and I admit this is a nitpick, Kirk actually *was* a real officer (look at the transporter readout when they're trying to beam him and Sulu aboard after the drill scene - it says "LT. J. KIRK"), but Watters never was.

 

[infinix]

Just a heads up, it's guerrilla warfare, not gorilla.

I was wondering what was so funny about what I posted.... CRAP!!!!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Now, now, don't go apeshit. (or if you prefer, go bananas)

Actually, bananas IS apeshit. Think about it...

 

[infinix]

^ Now, now, don't go apeshit. (or if you prefer, go bananas)

Actually, bananas IS apeshit. Think about it...

That's deep man....

 

[Cyke101]

This thread is bananas. B-A-N-A-N-A-S.

(I might have dated myself with that reference)

Though promoting Kirk to Captain in ST09 was ridiculous, it really doesn't matter. It was all about getting him to the right place so that we can go forward from there. It's an origin movie and it's set up to get everyone to their proper place. Most people don't want to watch another origin movie where he finally gets to be a captain. Audiences just want to see everyone in their proper roles in the next film and go from there.

Agreed. The way Kirk was promoted is really the only major gripe I have with the film, but it comes after the action and thus has no bearing on the other 95% of the film.

I would have loved to see Kirk become captain in XII, perhaps still spending much of the movie serving under Pike, not just because I thought Kirk was still too brash but also because I enjoyed the character of Pike.

Another key difference between Kirk and Watters: Kirk tried to prevent the Enterprise from facing the Narada, and later ordered Sulu to engage the ship only if there was a fighting chance. Watters, on the other hand, probably would have dived into battle head first if he were in the same situation, because he's RED SQUAD! RED SQUAD!! RED SQUAD!!!

 

[Sykonee]

Only because it's been brought up...

Watch out for gorillas!

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I too think that it was a stupid idea to make Kirk a Captain at the end of Trek 09. They should have given him his commission, some medals and maybe a 2-rank promotion to full Lt instead of Ensign or something.

Um, Kirk was already a full Lt so by giving him a 2-rank promotion he would be a commander and still able to command a ship at that rank.

I don't think nuKirk is anything like Tim Watters. Kirk may be brash and cocky, but in a good way. His heart is in the right place - he wants to do what's good for the Federation and would sacrifice himself if necessary. Watters, OTOH, was just an egotistical jackass who wanted to keep his own command at any cost. Plus, Watters bought into all that Red Squad crap, which Kirk would never have done.

Yeah I'm trying to figure out why so many people here think "we should take out that advanced warship that isn't currently a direct threat to the Federation instead of getting back up becuase we're so damned awesome" is the same as "we have to stop this guy WHO IS DESTROYING PLANETS AND KILLING BILLIONS and we don't have time to get reenforcements becuase their so far away that by the time we get to them and back more planets will be destroyed and billions more will be dead".

 

[infinix]

Um, Kirk was already a full Lt so by giving him a 2-rank promotion he would be a commander and still able to command a ship at that rank.

Even that full Lt. was a field promotion. Kirk was about to be kicked out of the academy for cheating on an exam. He was NOT a full Lt. when he sneaked on-board the Enterprise on medical reasons.

Yeah I'm trying to figure out why so many people here think "we should take out that advanced warship that isn't currently a direct threat to the Federation instead of getting back up becuase we're so damned awesome" is the same as "we have to stop this guy WHO IS DESTROYING PLANETS AND KILLING BILLIONS and we don't have time to get reenforcements becuase their so far away that by the time we get to them and back more planets will be destroyed and billions more will be dead".

I conceded that what Kirk did was ultimately more significant than what Watters did. However, my premise was this.

"What if Watters had succeeded in not only obtaining the data on the new class of enemy warship but also succeeded in destroying it and returned home? Would it have been outrageous for Starfleet to promoted Watters to the rank of Captain and give him command of the Defiant."

Remember, Watters was at it for 8 months with minimum loss in personnel and relatively high morale. And every single crew member loved him as a CO. Yes, he got cocky and got killed, but that's not my premise.

 

[Cyke101]

Um, Kirk was already a full Lt so by giving him a 2-rank promotion he would be a commander and still able to command a ship at that rank.

Even that full Lt. was a field promotion. Kirk was about to be kicked out of the academy for cheating on an exam.

Or the JJverse timeline could have followed the prime example and commended Kirk for original thinking. We never saw how far into the decision making process the Academy was into. For all we know, in the original timeline events proceeded very similarly, only without an SOS to interrupt the hearings. For that matter, nuKirk was handling himself fairly well in his own defense. Without more information, nuKirk was perhaps as close to getting kicked out as Kirk Prime was in the parallel situation, which ultimately means (meant) Kirk stayed.

Yeah I'm trying to figure out why so many people here think "we should take out that advanced warship that isn't currently a direct threat to the Federation instead of getting back up becuase we're so damned awesome" is the same as "we have to stop this guy WHO IS DESTROYING PLANETS AND KILLING BILLIONS and we don't have time to get reenforcements becuase their so far away that by the time we get to them and back more planets will be destroyed and billions more will be dead".

I conceded that what Kirk did was ultimately more significant than what Watters did. However, my premise was this.

"What if Watters had succeeded in not only obtaining the data on the new class of enemy warship but also succeeded in destroying it and returned home? Would it have been outrageous for Starfleet to promoted Watters to the rank of Captain and give him command of the Defiant."

Remember, Watters was at it for 8 months with minimum loss in personnel and relatively high morale. And every single crew member loved him as a CO. Yes, he got cocky and got killed, but that's not my premise.

That also suggests that nu-Starfleet and Starfleet Prime are the same creature with the same standards. Even if we stuck to one timeline, the Starfleet of TOS is very different than the Starfleet of the TNG/DS9/VOY era. If Watters was successful and returned home, he might be given a promotion to captain simply because it's wartime, when even old mothballed ships were called back into service (and ships need captains). But saving the capital of the Federation is still on a different scale than securing data on the enemy.

Because Starfleet is so different amongst the three eras (Abrams, TOS, TNG), I don't think that question can be really answered. Some of the things that the TOS crew got away with would be punishable in the TNG era, as Janeway points out. Some of the things in the TNG era didn't exist in TOS. And we already know that Abrams' Starfleet is different simply because of the Kelvin incident. Heck, Kirk Prime was demoted (albeit ceremoniously) for saving Earth in TVH. I'd like to think that any incarnation of Starfleet is elastic enough that it can bend its own rules and not be such a bureaucratic stick in the mud like many other fictional institutions.