Just how bad is Janeway, Captain wise?
- Thread starter Shintaek
- Start date
well, remember that Janeway was a former science officer (and an extremely good one too if we are to believe Tom Paris: she had worked under his father and he says his father only worked with the best). Science officers in Trek are "know-it-all" by definition, the "go-to-guy/gal" for any and all weirdness to be explained. It always made sense to me that she was in the thick of things more than other captains, especially in the first season when both her ops officer *and* chief engineer were basically rookies.
as for the general topic, I think Janeway as a captain is often held to impossible standards. The kind only a Picard could survive (almost) unscathed.
True but he's Spock. If Janeway had ordered Tuvok to do the same there would have been all kinds of drama.
Spock is one of my favorite Trek characters but I still found it a disturbing scene to watch.
I think that Janeway was a very poor captain.
Violations of the Prime Directive notwithstanding, her choices to sacrifice crewmembers to satisfy whims of desire was deplorable. Janeway's motto was, "If it makes sense to me, then it must be so, and I'll gladly risk your life or commit all of us for trivial shit."
I say when the returned to the AQ she should have been given a pretty little parade, quickly promoted to a quiet 'desk job' and then quietly brushed aside to 'retire by her own choice to pursue a different path.'
She got her crew home. Great.
She also was the one who chose to strand them there...repeatedly.
She was not Starfleet material. She was not the best of the best. She was not operating on a higher social, moral and intellectual level.
Violations of the Prime Directive notwithstanding, her choices to sacrifice crewmembers to satisfy whims of desire was deplorable. Janeway's motto was, "If it makes sense to me, then it must be so, and I'll gladly risk your life or commit all of us for trivial shit."
I say when the returned to the AQ she should have been given a pretty little parade, quickly promoted to a quiet 'desk job' and then quietly brushed aside to 'retire by her own choice to pursue a different path.'
She got her crew home. Great.
She also was the one who chose to strand them there...repeatedly.
She was not Starfleet material. She was not the best of the best. She was not operating on a higher social, moral and intellectual level.
Do you have an example of this?
Interesting - one of the favorite Janeway criticisms is that she often stuck to her moral high ground when she shouldn't have and that she seemed to know it all.
You know I never thought of that before, but you're right.
she broke the tempral prime directive 3 times to my knowlade one when she traved back in end game and the second was in the episode with the Advanced slip stream Drive Harry Kim had sent him self a message She should have never allowed him to read it and the third was Eye of the needle where she sent the Romulans information about the future the would have had crew names and compliments not to mention giving the 20 something years to decipher the star fleet encriptions she really had no affliction in dismantaling the TPD to suit her needs
Okay, that changes it to Criminally neglegent Homicide, doesn't negate her criminal acts.
For that to work, you have to be right! She wasn't, if not for Chakotay, she would have not only failed to extract information about Ransom and the Equinox, but lost her only information source about the aliens who were attacking them. There's risk, then there's blatant stupidity fueled by extreme emotionalism.
The creature was about to come out of the fissure, was he going to talk after he was dead? We do know that he was going to take it to his grave.
I agree that Janeway became obsessed with tracking down Ransom and the Equinox, but I can't equate it to "Obsession" simply because of her actions and behavior.
Kirk may have made his crew jumpy but he didn't threaten them, he relived Garrovick of duty yes, but that was because he felt that he had failed to save the other members of the landing party, once it was discovered that his actions would have had no effect one way or the other, he riscinded that order.
Janeway relievd Chakotay of duty because he prevented her from committing a criminally negegent homicide, and said that he would stop her again if she tried again to commit MURDER! Big difference here. Also, if we were to follow the Kirk analogy, once the Aliens had stoped their attacks due in large part to Chakotay urging her on to negotiate, she should have put him back on duty, she didn't.
i think a fundamentally more important question is, just how bad were the
writers and producers?
There is lots to enjoy about VOY, but in my book, the franchise jumped the shark when she does her little "deal with the devil" (borg- what episode was that?)
It just kind of went downhill from there.
Lets face it- that batch of folks milked the franchise for all it was worth and
was never really that loyal to the spirit of trek, the prime directive, etc.
Janeway is actually my favorite captain because shes outside the mold.
Picard is so predictably the 24th century man, and kirk is basically cast from the "lead role" cookie cutter. Sisko was darker and more moody
and that made him interesting and strong- my second favorite... but
still on the dramatically predictable side.
Yeah, she did a bunch of nutty stuff. But try to remember that shes just a character being manipulated by third rate writers at the tail end of a franchise that had pretty much explored the useful dramatic premises already.
writers and producers?
There is lots to enjoy about VOY, but in my book, the franchise jumped the shark when she does her little "deal with the devil" (borg- what episode was that?)
It just kind of went downhill from there.
Lets face it- that batch of folks milked the franchise for all it was worth and
was never really that loyal to the spirit of trek, the prime directive, etc.
Janeway is actually my favorite captain because shes outside the mold.
Picard is so predictably the 24th century man, and kirk is basically cast from the "lead role" cookie cutter. Sisko was darker and more moody
and that made him interesting and strong- my second favorite... but
still on the dramatically predictable side.
Yeah, she did a bunch of nutty stuff. But try to remember that shes just a character being manipulated by third rate writers at the tail end of a franchise that had pretty much explored the useful dramatic premises already.
And nothing is going to change the fact that you don't like Janeway. However, I find your arguments to be more emotional than logical. The only homicide committed in that episode was by Lessing, Ransom and the rest of the Equinox crew. There was nothing "criminally negligent" about it. It was cold-blooded and deliberate.
Actually, it's Janeway's actions that I don't like, character wise she was interesting. And actually my arguments are from a very logical standpoint, thank you for the backhanded insult by the way.
If it wasn't a direct homicide, but she placed him in the situation, knowing full well what the risks are then it is a criminally negligent homicide.
Janeway had a plan, it was going to fail. A man was going to die; bad judgement.
The fissure was open, Lessing was seconds away from death, her plan was a failure.
"Obsession" and "Equinox" were totally different situations.
If it wasn't a direct homicide, but she placed him in the situation, knowing full well what the risks are then it is a criminally negligent homicide.
Janeway had a plan, it was going to fail. A man was going to die; bad judgement.
The fissure was open, Lessing was seconds away from death, her plan was a failure.
"Obsession" and "Equinox" were totally different situations.
There can be no "criminally negligent homicide" without a death!
We don't know that because Chakotay put a stop to it. Would Lessing have betrayed his captain? Janeway apparently believed that anyone who would stoop to genocide simply to get home faster would have no moral qualms about that but Chakotay believed otherwise. Fpr all we know Chakotay was right and Janeway would have ended up caving to avoid killing him but this is all conjecture because LESSING DID NOT DIE.
Kirk wanted revenge against the cloud monster and Janeway wanted revenge against Raonsom. Both crossed the line in the quest for revenge and both were pulled back by those who worked for them. Seems pretty similar to me...
if she had decided to go around borg space not only would the borg been wiped out and the guy would from "Hope and Fear" would naver come looking for them . see honestly the prime directive would have dictated to make the least impact she had put them into hirojin borg and that creepy guy from "counter point" space. now if she had gone around borg space we never would have had these little tidbits to talk about
How were they supposed to do that? Borg Space was so vast that they'd be stuck for decades. Besides, the 8472 would've wiped out the Borg and begun a mass purge of all intelligent life if VOY hadn't been there. That guy in "Hope and Fear" was a moron, his race was dead either way but he blamed VOY for the lesser of two evils.
