Just had my first real work out.

[thestrangequark]

^You say that because you've never been harassed. It's not nice to have scary men follow you for ten blocks, or grab your hair, or pull their dicks out in front of you, or snatch your umbrella away when you try to use it to hide your face from their stares, or comment on the size of your ass by saying, "There's enough for all of us!"


Shall I continue?

 

[iguana_tonante]

But, still, women don't have to play a greatly active role in getting someone. Sure the trade-off with that is getting harassed and I know how bad it can be as I've seen it and know people who do it and suffer from it.

Still, from my POV, it'd be nice to be "harassed."

I'll quote the lady: Bullshit. I don't know how you can claim to "know how bad it can be as I've seen it and know people who do it and suffer from it" and still say shit like that.

You are either lying about your acquaintances, or you are have just the worst personal empathy ever.

 

[Trekker4747]

Note the quotes, it implies the word being used isn't meaning what it's supposed to mean.

I, personally, would want some-kind-of attention but when you're on my side of the sexual coin active attention isn't common.

For women the attention can go from nice to plain annoying and harassing and it's sickening that people behave in such a manner.

But, for me, not getting any attention whatsoever is a bit disheartening, discouraging, soul-crushing, and makes one feel very, very alone as if there's no one in the world who thinks of you.

Harassment is disgusting and shouldn't be tolerated.

But at least if a guy speaks with you and shows interest in you and asks you out you know you're a viable candidate for being in a relationship (and I'm talking about just simple talking, flirting, stuff not harassment). When you're a guy?

You get nothing.

Oh, sure, maybe a slight smile now and then, a light flip of the hair and extension of the neck or whatever small things women do to "lure" an interest. But, still, as a guy I'm expected to make the first move and I've not the capability to do that.

So that's what I mean by "nice to be harassed." I meant it'd be nice to have anyone show any kind of interest whatsoever.

 

[KJbushway]

^You say that because you've never been harassed. It's not nice to have scary men follow you for ten blocks, or grab your hair, or pull their dicks out in front of you, or snatch your umbrella away when you try to use it to hide your face from their stares, or comment on the size of your ass by saying, "There's enough for all of us!"


Shall I continue?

Wow I see that and think god, I am part of a sex filled with douchebags. Its like you live near Jersey Shore.

 

[thestrangequark]

^Heh. I live in Brooklyn. It happens everywhere, though. Believe me, I've been around the world and back and been harassed in half a dozen languages!
Trekker,I understand, but my point is that it's this attitude of not distinguishing between what is and isn't harassment that promotes such behavior in our society. Most men who do things like I described honestly think that it's okay! They think that women like it, and "take it as a compliment," and if they don't take it as a compliment, then there's something wrong with the woman. I mean, a fellow poster here didn't even seem to know that the definition of "leer" is a malicious and malevolent look, and not a flirtatious one. By playing lightly with the term you're becoming part of the problem, even if you're not actually engaging in the behavior.

Harassment and showing sexual interest are not the same thing, and should not be treated as such. I know it sounds anal, but so long the kind of harassment I've described continues to happen every day, and so long as 1 in 4 American women are sexually assaulted by the age of 12, we cannot bandy the term harassment so lightly and expect there to be no consequences.

 

[KJbushway]

^ if you think that 1 out of 4(I think thats one of those scary not so accurate numbers, not to say there isn't a problem or a lot happens) in America is sexually assualted is bad, look at just how many in our military is assualted. you won't be Support Our troops then.

 

[Trekker4747]

^Heh. I live in Brooklyn. It happens everywhere, though. Believe me, I've been around the world and back and been harassed in half a dozen languages!
Trekker,I understand, but my point is that it's this attitude of not distinguishing between what is and isn't harassment that promotes such behavior in our society. Most men who do things like I described honestly think that it's okay! They think that women like it, and "take it as a compliment," and if they don't take it as a compliment, then there's something wrong with the woman. I mean, a fellow poster here didn't even seem to know that the definition of "leer" is a malicious and malevolent look, and not a flirtatious one. By playing lightly with the term you're becoming part of the problem, even if you're not actually engaging in the behavior.

Harassment and showing sexual interest are not the same thing, and should not be treated as such. I know it sounds anal, but so long the kind of harassment I've described continues to happen every day, and so long as 1 in 4 American women are sexually assaulted by the age of 12, we cannot bandy the term harassment so lightly and expect there to be no consequences.

I understand and I apologize for the extremeness of my words and I find it shocking and disgusting that that sort of stuff goes on everyday in this time.

It's bad, though, that sometimes I was one of those men. Maybe not so extreme but for some men it just comes so easy for them just to walk up to a woman and push himself on her, or at least make himself a presence so she knows he's there.

Me? I smile nicely at a girl, say hi, good morning, whatever to the ones I work with and don't even approach strangers because who am I to bug a stranger out in public, or my waitress, or the woman cutting my hair or, hell, even the woman trainer I was given?

And for as much as I've been told that at some point the girls want the "nice guy" or "it'll happen" or the one that always chaps my ass "God has a plan for you", I keep seeing the brazen, bold, assholes win and I'm left in the dust.

Part of that is maybe why I'm working out as, in part, I think maybe it'll help my confidence or something but in the end I doubt it.

I'm a guy whose self-esteem, self worth and confidence has been torn to shreds over my life to the point I've not got any left, parts of me ache inside for something or to get out but a calloused shell of bitterness holds me inside. All attempts I've made over the years to try something have ended in failure and more pain. That has a way of tearing down your self worth when no one shows even a passing interest in you.

Whatever.

I'm going to bed.

 

[thestrangequark]

^This may be hard to understand, but the harassment I'm talking about does the exact same thing to me as being ignored does to you. It tears down my self-worth, it doesn't build it up. It makes me feel dirty and disgusting and anxious around men -- men have treated me as a sex object from the age of 2. That kind of attention is not good for self-image. You're suffering from the cliched misconception of the grass being greener, but the fact is, male or female, sexual relations are different for each individual.

I know it's unsolicited, but if you want some advice I'd say try examining your self-worth independent of sex. This can be difficult for men and women, usually in very different ways, but that doesn't make it impossible. Keep working out, find some other ways to improve your life -- maybe read more, take up an interesting hobby, learn an instrument or something. You can't define yourself solely by how you're viewed by the opposite sex -- believe me, I did it for years and it's a shitty way to live.

 

[{ Emilia }]

^Heh. I live in Brooklyn. It happens everywhere, though. Believe me, I've been around the world and back and been harassed in half a dozen languages!

I've visited most countries in Western and South Europe, been to the US once, to Asia once, lived in big cities and in small towns and I've never had any of those nasty things happen to me.

I'm either extremely lucky (which i find unlikely since none of my friends has made any bad experiences either) or Europe is a ridiculously safe place if you have some common sense.

Edit: And even every single one of the photographers I've worked with was well-behaved, professional and absolutely harmless.

 

[Myasishchev]

I like to think that someone's opening this thread right now thinking it's about working out, and then just going "What the fuck?"

Pretty much all my fault too. Sorry about that.

Anyway, I think what Trekker means--well, it's what I meant--is that it's maybe about an order of magnitude easier to get laid as a woman, and if that's what you're going for, it's easier to play that side of the table. Men are less choosy, less prone to offense, more easily manipulable. Beyond pure sexual market characteristics, men are also more volatile, far, far, far more prone to acts which are criminal, violent or antisocial, and a lot of boys get sexually assaulted too, you know.

On the flipside, a woman has to deal with a severe disadvantage in physical strength and the accompanying objective as well as perceived disadvantage in personal security, the aforementioned menstruation, and the specter of pregnancy haunting your uterus.*

And I fully recognize that the only way I could sperg out more is by assigning numerical stats. But between the lower testosterone and concomitant lower explosiveness, and the easier access to sex, I'm going to go with woman for the win.**

*On the other hand, you have total dominion over it, at least for a while, which is more than you can say for the other component of any pregnancy. A wash?
** I didn't really mention economic factors here, but my understanding is that the gap is closing very fast, and in many fields (and demographics) women significantly outpace men in terms of income.

And for as much as I've been told that at some point the girls want the "nice guy" or "it'll happen"

Absolute rubbish, isn't it? Being charitable, "they" (generalizing is hard) want someone who strikes a balance. And people who say "it'll happen" have a weird view of the universe. Stare at that wall all you want, it's not going anywhere till you get a hammer.

Part of that is maybe why I'm working out as, in part, I think maybe it'll help my confidence or something but in the end I doubt it.

You go kick that beach bum's ass, Charles Atlas.

But seriously, keep at it till you're such an imposing physical presence that you make everyone else fade into the background. It's an interesting (read: stupid) relic of evolution that "women" (generalizing) prefer strong men despite how obviously threatening they are. Alternatively, get rich. It's a proxy for strength, and probably better, as you can't buy cool stuff with muscles.

Actually, I've never fully understood why the process would favor childbearers, and primary child caretakers, strikingly smaller than males. If anything, you'd think the males would be smaller, since their only integral value is to provide a mechanism for sexual reproduction. The black widow has the right idea.

I've visited most countries in Western and South Europe, been to the US once, to Asia once, lived in big cities and in small towns and I've never had any of those nasty things happen to me.

If I've learned one thing from this thread, it's what a dip is. If I've learned two, it's that Brooklyn suuuucks.

I know it's unsolicited, but if you want some advice I'd say try examining your self-worth independent of sex. This can be difficult for men and women, usually in very different ways, but that doesn't make it impossible. Keep working out, find some other ways to improve your life -- maybe read more, take up an interesting hobby, learn an instrument or something. You can't define yourself solely by how you're viewed by the opposite sex -- believe me, I did it for years and it's a shitty way to live.

It's uncanny how advice can be absolutely true yet terribly impractical for the average person. But if it's achievable, then this is really the way to go.

 

[thestrangequark]

^Heh. I live in Brooklyn. It happens everywhere, though. Believe me, I've been around the world and back and been harassed in half a dozen languages!

I've visited most countries in Western and South Europe, been to the US once, to Asia once, lived in big cities and in small towns and I've never had any of those nasty things happen to me.

I'm either extremely lucky (which i find unlikely since none of my friends has made any bad experiences either) or Europe is a ridiculously safe place if you have some common sense.

Edit: And even every single one of the photographers I've worked with was well-behaved, professional and absolutely harmless.

It(London) happens(Manchester) in (Berlin) Europe (Dortmund) and (Czech Republic) all (Delhi) over (Buenos Aires) the (Alberta)
world.

 

[KJbushway]

Well that post isn't easy to read. You couldn't have put the links below it.

 

[{ Emilia }]

It(London) happens(Manchester) in (Berlin) Europe (Dortmund) and (Czech Republic) all (Delhi) over (Buenos Aires) the (Alberta)
world.

I know it happens in Europe, too but your original post made it sound like it happens all the time to every woman out there which is (sorry) bullshit.

 

[Myasishchev]

Well that post isn't easy to read. You couldn't have put the links below it.

I liked it. It's experimental.

 

[KJbushway]

I used to be friends with alot of girls. Out of 10 only 2 had something bad happen to them. So its not bad everywhere. But when the majority of the abuse is by someone you know, its not a small problem. I seen alot of girls going through life un-touched. I would see what the actaul numbers are, but still Don't go into U.S military. More girls get raped there than civilians.

 

[Myasishchev]

Out of 10 only 2 had something bad happen to them. So its not bad everywhere.

Yeah, you're gonna have casualties. The important thing is that we took the beach.

Wait, what?

 

[thestrangequark]

It(London) happens(Manchester) in (Berlin) Europe (Dortmund) and (Czech Republic) all (Delhi) over (Buenos Aires) the (Alberta)
world.

I know it happens in Europe, too but your original post made it sound like it happens all the time to every woman out there which is (sorry) bullshit.

I never said it happens to every woman, just that it happens a lot. And I offered my personal experience, as some one who experiences it every day.

I like to think that someone's opening this thread right now thinking it's about working out, and then just going "What the fuck?"

Pretty much all my fault too. Sorry about that.

I take full responsibility for my rantings. Though I did warn you!

Anyway, I think what Trekker means--well, it's what I meant--is that it's maybe about an order of magnitude easier to get laid as a woman, and if that's what you're going for, it's easier to play that side of the table. Men are less choosy, less prone to offense, more easily manipulable. Beyond pure sexual market characteristics, men are also more volatile, far, far, far more prone to acts which are criminal, violent or antisocial,

I understand where he's coming from, but the point I'm making is that bandying about the word harassment as has been done in this thread is, at the very least, feeding into an environment in which women should not only expect to be sexually degraded, but should appreciate it.

and a lot of boys get sexually assaulted too, you know.

Of course, and I never said otherwise. It's also irrelevant, as we're talking about adult sexuality, not pedophilia. The sexual abuse of children, male and female, has been inarguably classified as wrong and immoral by our society, unfortunately, the sexual abuse of women has not.

On the flipside, a woman has to deal with a severe disadvantage in physical strength and the accompanying objective as well as perceived disadvantage in personal security, the aforementioned menstruation, and the specter of pregnancy haunting your uterus.*

The thing that stands out to me the most is "perceived disadvantage in personal security." You think that, in regards to sex crimes, women are merely "perceiving" a disadvantage?

And I fully recognize that the only way I could sperg out more is by assigning numerical stats. But between the lower testosterone and concomitant lower explosiveness, and the easier access to sex, I'm going to go with woman for the win.**

Easier access to sex? Who do you think we're having sex with? For every woman who is getting laid in a hetero encounter a man is getting laid too.

*On the other hand, you have total dominion over it, at least for a while, which is more than you can say for the other component of any pregnancy. A wash?

I'm a little confused re: total dominion. Over what?

** I didn't really mention economic factors here, but my understanding is that the gap is closing very fast, and in many fields (and demographics) women significantly outpace men in terms of income.

The gap is still very real overall, women are at a great disadvantage when it comes to income.

 

[RAMA]

Why isn't this in the fitness and sports forum??? Hmmm

Anyway, congrats Trekker, hopefully you are consistent and don't let your motivation swing to much in either direction, leading to abandoning it by either lack of progress, or lack of expectations met.

Oh, believe me, I've no self-respect. In fact I hate myself with a passion. I'm an asshole, I'm a geek, and I'm a chicken-shit who can't do a simple thing like ask a girl out.

Geeks are hawt, though!

I gotta admit being a girl is pretty nice and slack.
You don't have to do all the "work" of actually asking guys out. Instead it's the guys who have to come with original pick-up lines and all that stuff which sounds like a major pain.

Ack ,this HAS changed somewhat, but I do still find most women, modern or not still prefer men to ask them out. It still seems old fashioned to me. I respect girls who ask men out more.

Trekker you're annoying sometimes but you're not an asshole. I don't think you have a malicious bone in your body.

RAMA

 

[thestrangequark]

Well that post isn't easy to read. You couldn't have put the links below it.

It's not supposed to be easy to read -- metaphor, baby.

Yeah, I'm deep like that.

 

[KJbushway]

^