Just finished the Babylon 5 series run, some random observations

[Jan]

Lennier had never shown anger or resentment toward Sheridan before.

I don't know about that. Next time you watch the episode where Sheridan returns from Z'ha'dum, take a look at Lennier's expression as Delenn goes up on the catwalk to Sheridan. It's hardly a glad, welcoming expression at all. I think that Lennier expressed a good bit of jealousy/resentment, albeit pretty understated as is fitting for a member of the religeous caste and an accolyte of The One.

Jan

 

[TheGodBen]

Lennier had been acting passive aggressive towards Sheridan all season, but it wasn't completely obvious because he and Sheridan rarely shared screen-time. When talking to Delenn, Lennier clearly didn't want to talk about Sheridan, and when he had to he failed to refer to him as her husband. Lennier claimed to accept Delenn's relationship with Sheridan, but in reality he was in denial, and it was becoming clear that he was preparing for the eventuality that Sheridan would die so that he could swoop in on Delenn.

He did not desire harm to come to Sheridan, but when he saw that Sheridan was already in harm's way, he chose not to act. It's fine distinction, but Lennier was so twisted up inside that he was able to make it in a rash judgement. When he thought about it some more, he realised he was wrong and went back to fix things, but by that time Sheridan was out of the room and he had lost the chance to do the right thing.


And before anybody asks, no, I did not try to kill my ex's boyfriend. He somehow ended up in front of my car and I had no choice but to bail out before hitting him. In hindsight, it would have been smarter to hit the brake pedal, but that didn't seem like the best option at the time. Anyway, he only broke his hip, I'm the one that has to get to get a new hood and windscreen.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I don't want to have to go read three Psi Corps novels to find out when & if Garbaldi ever got to even the score with Bester.

Garibaldi made the deal with Lyta to remove Bester's blocks and Garibaldi is alive and happy in 2281. The conclusion should be apparent even without the details from the books.

By this logic, Season 4 would've been much better if it was several episodes shorter and just abruptly cut to Sheridan & company saying, "Hey, thank God we defeated the Shadows & got rid of President Clark!" It's not the FACT that he defeated Bester, it's knowing HOW. That's what JMS gyped his faithful viewers out of.

I have a feeling the show would've been much better-balanced overall if the Season Five renewal had come sooner. That would've allowed JMS to extend a few of the Earth War plot threads into the next year

The plan was to have the Earth and Minbari Civil wars flow into season five, but the second half of season five likely would have been pretty much the same.

I know, and the season overall would've been MUCH stronger for it. It quickly became obvious that JMS didn't have quite enough story left to fill up the remaining 22 episodes.

What made it unrealistic was changing it from his pining after Delenn to actually (however briefly) desiring harm to come to Sheridan. That had been an aspect never seen before. Delenn even mentions that although she knew of his feelings for her,(obviously since he literally spells it out when he thinks they're going to die) there's NEVER been an indication that Lennier wished for violence toward Sheridan.


That skips a level. Unrequited love is very different from someone wanting to see a "rival" dead. Lennier had never shown anger or resentment toward Sheridan before.

Exactly!

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Early in the production of the first season, JMS (in Cinefantastique, iirc) said he wanted to do an episode where Takashima returns to Babylon 5 from the Rim and something was chasing her. He said the teaser would involve a damaged ship that the crew would have to tow into the docking bay. The ship doors open to reveal a bloody Takashima, who'd collapse — fade to black.

Another never-produced proposed episode from that issue was "Demon on the Run" - a Harlan Ellison-penned episode which would have brought Robert Culp back as Trent from The Outer Limits' "Demon With a Glass Hand" !!!!!

Anyone ever hear why this one never happened? Did Ellison have second thoughs, or was Culp unwilling/unavailable?

 

[Reverend]

That skips a level. Unrequited love is very different from someone wanting to see a "rival" dead. Lennier had never shown anger or resentment toward Sheridan before.

You keep implying premeditation where non exists. He wasn't consciously or persistently trying to knock him off. He took advantage of a once in a lifetime opportunity that fell right into his lap and for a split second became a different person. It happens.

As Jan and TGB have both pointed out the ground work for Lennier's increasing resentment of Sheridan had been building almost from the beginning. The whole reason for him becoming a Ranger in the first place was precisely because he couldn't stand to be around them both anymore. All that guff about taking Marcus' place was exactly that.

Of course the real stupidity of it was that if he really wanted Sheridan out of the picture, all he had to do was wait around another 20 years.

Anyone ever hear why this one never happened? Did Ellison have second thoughs, or was Culp unwilling/unavailable?

Yeah that is an odd one JMS mentioned it several times at various points in the production but nothing ever came of it. I vaguely recall an unrelated quote somewhere where JMS or Ellison himself says that he didn't want to write a B5 script, claming that he didn't want to tred all over Joe's universe. I may be misremembering of course, Jan probably knows better.

Having said all that, I wouldn't be totally shocked if the whole thing was a practical joke on somebody's part, given that JMS has gone on record as naming 'Glass Hand' as his favourite Outer Limits episode ever. One can certainly see where he got the idea for Zathrus's time stabilisers.

 

[DonIago]

Other than people not -wanting- to believe that Lennier would ultimately make a reflexive choice that some people would regard as completely irredeemable regardless of the circumstances, I'm not really sure why it's unbelievable to anyone that Lennier would do what he did. Especially given that he did come to his senses within about five seconds, and in the end even if everyone else did forgive him I don't think he'd ever forgive himself.

As someone with some experience in having feelings for someone I knew I could never have (is it better or worse if they're in an open relationship so you do "have" them on some level?) who I also think is in an inferior relationship (they broke up less than five years later and everyone thought it was for the best), I pity Lennier for destroying everything because of one brief moment of thinking about himself instead of others. In my situation I learned enough about the person I had feelings for that it pretty much killed those feelings.

 

[Jan]

Anyone ever hear why this one never happened? Did Ellison have second thoughs, or was Culp unwilling/unavailable?

Yeah that is an odd one JMS mentioned it several times at various points in the production but nothing ever came of it. I vaguely recall an unrelated quote somewhere where JMS or Ellison himself says that he didn't want to write a B5 script, claming that he didn't want to tred all over Joe's universe. I may be misremembering of course, Jan probably knows better.

Having said all that, I wouldn't be totally shocked if the whole thing was a practical joke on somebody's part, given that JMS has gone on record as naming 'Glass Hand' as his favourite Outer Limits episode ever. One can certainly see where he got the idea for Zathrus's time stabilisers.

JMS did mention it several times but Harlan has said that he thinks JMS was just pulling his/our leg since Harlan simply doesn't ever do sequels. JMS has said that he thinks Harlan never wrote a script for B5 in part because Harlan wanted the show to be completely JMS's.

Jan

 

[hyzmarca]

The whole reason for him becoming a Ranger in the first place was precisely because he couldn't stand to be around them both anymore.

It wasn't just that. If he just couldn't stand to be around them he could have gone anywhere and done literally anything. He became a Ranger, a job that he was really ill-suited for personality-wise, because he wanted to be more like Sheriden. Some part of him thought that Delen would like him better if he were a heroic soldier just like her husband.

I imagine he would have eventually bought a toupee.

Of course the real stupidity of it was that if he really wanted Sheridan out of the picture, all he had to do was wait around another 20 years.

At that point, all he had to do was wait two minutes.

 

[JoeD80]

Garibaldi made the deal with Lyta to remove Bester's blocks and Garibaldi is alive and happy in 2281. The conclusion should be apparent even without the details from the books.

By this logic, Season 4 would've been much better if it was several episodes shorter and just abruptly cut to Sheridan & company saying, "Hey, thank God we defeated the Shadows & got rid of President Clark!" It's not the FACT that he defeated Bester, it's knowing HOW. That's what JMS gyped his faithful viewers out of.

It is seen how Garibaldi is getting rid of his blocks in the episode "Wheel of Fire." The final chase in "The Fate of Bester" book is an interesting story, but it's not part of the main story of the Babylon 5 station.

The plan was to have the Earth and Minbari Civil wars flow into season five, but the second half of season five likely would have been pretty much the same.

I know, and the season overall would've been MUCH stronger for it. It quickly became obvious that JMS didn't have quite enough story left to fill up the remaining 22 episodes.

I think season five holds up pretty well. There were still about 16 arc episodes there, and the Alliance/Centauri arc is plenty strong and intense.

JMS did mention it several times but Harlan has said that he thinks JMS was just pulling his/our leg since Harlan simply doesn't ever do sequels. JMS has said that he thinks Harlan never wrote a script for B5 in part because Harlan wanted the show to be completely JMS's.

Joe has that ability to tell jokes with a straight face, to the point where Harlan probably thought Joe was joking when he would say "No really, we can have him show up on station years later, still on the run!" Perhaps Joe was serious and Harlan thought he was joking. Beyond the Demon script I know of only two other planned Harlan scripts for B5 that weren't written. There was to be a script about down-below that I think was called "Midnight in the Sunken Cathedral" in season one which went by the boards after Harlan was injured in the Northridge earthquake, and the one for "Objects in Motion" which Harlan deferred to Joe.

 

[Reverend]

The whole reason for him becoming a Ranger in the first place was precisely because he couldn't stand to be around them both anymore.

It wasn't just that. If he just couldn't stand to be around them he could have gone anywhere and done literally anything. He became a Ranger, a job that he was really ill-suited for personality-wise, because he wanted to be more like Sheriden. Some part of him thought that Delen would like him better if he were a heroic soldier just like her husband.

I imagine he would have eventually bought a toupee.

Granted his feelings about the "Sheridan & Delenn situation" probably weren't the only reason for specifically choosing to join the Rangers but they were undoubtedly the primary impetus behind his wanting out in the first place. Even so his feelings on this matter were inexorably tied up with his motivations as of all the things he chose, he chose to join as a soldier in the private army of the woman he'd been pining for. In short, he didn't go very far.

It is seen how Garibaldi is getting rid of his blocks in the episode "Wheel of Fire." The final chase in "The Fate of Bester" book is an interesting story, but it's not part of the main story of the Babylon 5 station.

Exactly. As great and important as Bester is as a character, his story and his rivalry with Garibaldi are just related asides and not central to the main plot. The series did what it set out to do and that was tell a story of a 5 year period that saw the galaxy change forever.

Joe has that ability to tell jokes with a straight face, to the point where Harlan probably thought Joe was joking when he would say "No really, we can have him show up on station years later, still on the run!" Perhaps Joe was serious and Harlan thought he was joking. Beyond the Demon script I know of only two other planned Harlan scripts for B5 that weren't written. There was to be a script about down-below that I think was called "Midnight in the Sunken Cathedral" in season one which went by the boards after Harlan was injured in the Northridge earthquake, and the one for "Objects in Motion" which Harlan deferred to Joe.

Not that I doubt a word of that, but do you have a source for any of that info? I've been gradually collecting data for an article on the wikia for just this kind of thing and I always prefer to cite primary sources.

 

[Jan]

Beyond the Demon script I know of only two other planned Harlan scripts for B5 that weren't written. There was to be a script about down-below that I think was called "Midnight in the Sunken Cathedral" in season one which went by the boards after Harlan was injured in the Northridge earthquake, and the one for "Objects in Motion" which Harlan deferred to Joe.

Not that I doubt a word of that, but do you have a source for any of that info? I've been gradually collecting data for an article on the wikia for just this kind of thing and I always prefer to cite primary sources.

Here's a mention of the title, at least.

Jan

 

[Reverend]

Yeah, I did a search and came up with that almost immediately and if look at the article you'll notice it has magically appeared.

A general search on google is a little more tricky as Elison went and used that exact same title for some audiobook compilation of his stories.

I have turned up a bunch of unproduced titles on the Lurkers Guide and will be running some more searches so see if anything else turns up. A lot of the time when researching this stuff all there are is a title and sometimes an assigned writer. Very rarely is there any clue of even the basic premise, how far along it got or why it naver made it. Hence at the moment the article is little more that a glorified list.

 

[JoeD80]

Oh yeah that post is where I got the title. The description was in the memos in the script books:

"The World Below" (For Harlan?)

Deep within the darker parts of Babylon 5, where the poorer travelers from other worlds wait jobs or opportunities to start new lives on other worlds, a sub-culture has emerged, with its own rules, regulations, and leaders. [etc.]

I assumed it was the same script, since the title seemed apt for down-below, and in that particular memo (no date, but titled "Premises in Development") it's the story with the most details and Harlan was according to Joe the first writer to be working on a script besides himself:

Four scripts are being written at this moment: three by me (in order to set the tone of the series...), one by Harlan Ellison.

On the demon script, I believe this was the start of that:

BTW, as an aside, was having dinner with Harlan a few days ago and he spelled out some of the notions he has for B5 episodes, rattled off about four or five. And folks...you ain't seen NOTHIN' yet. I presented him with a story of my own, premise actually, that I'd like him to write when we get going...and he loved it. And though I can't give any details, suffice to say it'll cause QUITE a reaction in SF television circles.

As Harlan commented...yes, there may be a sequel to "Demon With a Glass Hand"

Then the quake putting scripts on hold; I assume the two scripts mentioned are Sunken Cathedral and the Demon sequel:

Yes, the two Harlan scripts are temporarily on hold, due to some health problems earlier this season (two heart procedures), the quake and his injuries there, and other stuff.

We hope to get Harlan's "Demon" crossover script this season.

By season three plans may have finally dissolved:

Dunno [if we'll get Harlan's Demon script]. We'll see

On Objects in Motion, it's also in the script books:

Because it was Harlan who suggested [Objects in Motion] in the first place, I was hoping that I could convince him to write the episode itself. But he opted out, for what would be the last opportunity to do so.
...
I think the real crux of the matter was that he really always viewed B5 as my story.
...
So I think he decided, consciously or otherwise, to sit it out and cheer from the sidelines.

As for Joe telling jokes with a straight face, check out the bit on the Lost tales where he tells Greg Maday that B5 will be done with puppets from now on.

I have turned up a bunch of unproduced titles on the Lurkers Guide and will be running some more searches so see if anything else turns up. A lot of the time when researching this stuff all there are is a title and sometimes an assigned writer. Very rarely is there any clue of even the basic premise, how far along it got or why it naver made it. Hence at the moment the article is little more that a glorified list.

Some of the episodes are listed in the memos in Volumes 2 & 3 of the script books. Often it seems that plots from the unused premises were split up into other episodes; e.g., The Very Long Night of Susan Ivanova had a plot of the Centauri declaring war on the Narn, which ended up in The Coming of Shadows, and The Customer Is Always Right had a plot about a holo-brothel, which ended up in River of Souls.

 

[Reverend]

^Thanks for all that. I'll get around to incorporating it just as soon as I have the energy.
Couldn't sleep and ended up spending all night going though all the alternate script titles (mostly season one episodes.)
Came across two rather odd ones though: "Target Unknown" and "Metaphors and Body Counts." The Lurker's Guide appears to have them both down as David Gerrold scripts, but I can't track down a source for that and I found a posting in the JMS archive that says theses two had been re-titled, but not what they've been retitled to. So at this point I'm not sure if they're unproduced scripts that got retitled then dropped of if they're just working titles for episodes that did get made.
If its the latter then for the life of me I can't figure out which episodes they might be.

 

[JoeD80]

One of them may have been Laser-Mirror-Starweb. That was a David Gerrold outline for a first season episode that was instead used as issues #8 and #9 of the comic.

 

[Reverend]

That horrible thing was intended as an episode? Eek! It wasn't even very good for a comic. Actually, now that I think about it "Metaphors and Body Counts" would be a pretty likely fit for Laser-Mirror-Starweb given that it does feature both a body count and a metaphor...

 

[JoeD80]

Assume no longer about the Harlan script mentioned above; I just saw this post which seems to confirm Midnight on the Sunken Cathedral being the same as The World Below:

"World" was retitled "Sunken."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

JMS did mention it several times but Harlan has said that he thinks JMS was just pulling his/our leg since Harlan simply doesn't ever do sequels.

He does apparently do side-quels, though:

Spoiler: New Outer Limits

The New Outer Limits ep "The Human Operators" takes place in the same universe as "Demon with a Glass Hand" - the sentient fighters in THO were originally built for the war against the Kyben in "Demon..."

 

[Reverend]

Assume no longer about the Harlan script mentioned above; I just saw this post which seems to confirm Midnight on the Sunken Cathedral being the same as The World Below:

"World" was retitled "Sunken."

Thanks, I've amended the article!

Some of the episodes are listed in the memos in Volumes 2 & 3 of the script books. Often it seems that plots from the unused premises were split up into other episodes; e.g., The Very Long Night of Susan Ivanova had a plot of the Centauri declaring war on the Narn, which ended up in The Coming of Shadows, and The Customer Is Always Right had a plot about a holo-brothel, which ended up in River of Souls.

Could you elaborate on this a little more since I don't actually have any of the script books and can't exactly check up on this myself. Or better yet, go edit the wika!

 

[JoeD80]

One of the memos that is dated 7/31/94 spells out a/b plots for some second season episodes that got moved around into other episodes, as well as some that were dropped and a focus on Keffer plots that were actually never going to be used (Joe put them there in the memo to satisfy the network). There are six episodes mentioned in this memo:

1. "Unnatural Selection"

A-plot about a new Down-Below leader
B-plot was about Keffer taking a Starfury out on personal leave for his friend's memorial

2. "The Customer Is Always Right"

A-plot was a plot about a holo-brothel ("River of Souls")
B-plot was Delenn's fate in the Grey Council ("All Alone in the Night")

3. "Rites of Passage"

A-plot was a Keffer plot about him being caught in a war between two alien governments and sentenced to death for being a spy.
B-plot was about the Centauri Emperor dying ("The Coming of Shadows")
C-plot was about Talia being paired with a mate by the Psi Corps to breed a better Telepath (sort of changed around in "Soul Mates" where she's already paired off)

4. "A Race Through Dark Places"

A-plot same as episode
B-plot Delenn wants Sheridan to teach her how to be human and Sheridan wants to learn about being Minbari (around here and there; Delenn asks Ivanova about being human in "Soul Mates" and Sheridan gets involved in Minbari ceremonies in the third season)
C-plot Garibaldi is introduced to the Rangers ("The Coming of Shadows")

5. "The Very Long Night of Susan Ivanova"

A-plot The Centauri finally attack the Narn with the Shadows help; war is declared ("The Coming of Shadows")
B-plot The founder of B-5 comes to visit - moved to the first version of "Matters of Honor" but ultimately dropped
C-plot Ivanova is ordered to take time off

6. "Dream Within a Dream"

G'Kar is in a "healding coma, the Narn way of dealing with the disease." Everyone in real life is in the dream but in different roles. Quoting from the memo -

He is Captain Jack Carr of the Earth Alliance; his female Russian second in command is Commander Dylan (a human version of Delenn, played by Mira without makeup), and his security chief is Len (the human version of Londo, played by Peter without makeup). They don't believe his story that this is a dream...neither do the various ambassadors, Minbari ambassador Sherdinn, Narn ambassador S'san, or Centauri ambassador Garabaldo.
...
The only constant in the real world and the dream world is Kosh, who may hold the secret G'Kar needs to heal himself and break out of his dream existence.

The network apparently thought the last one would be too confusing for viewers.