Just finished the Babylon 5 series run, some random observations

[sonak]

I know, this is like reflecting on "Dallas" or "Dynasty" at this point, but though I'd been interested in the show before, I'd only seen a handful of random episodes. I just recently finished the entire series run however, and watching a show that's as well put together as B5 was all within a short time period was pretty cool. So here goes:


1.Seasons 2-4 obviously was the best part of the series. I know the story behind season 5 being somewhat unexpected so there's that, but season 1 took a while to get going too.

2. The recurring villains like Morden and Bester were really a strength of the series. They had interesting motivations instead of being cardboard bad guys.

3. I thought the way the G'Kar-Londo relationship developed as almost friendly was pretty unrealistic. Londo wasn't just some high-ranking Centauri when Narn was conquered, he was the MAN BEHIND THE INVASION! Yes, he didn't exactly understand what he was getting into, and regretted his actions, but really...
There's even a part in season 4 when G'Kar says he won't forgive him and they're barely speaking to one another on the station. By season 5 Londo's apologizing, G'Kar's acting as his bodyguard, they're joking with one another like they're old friends...


4. I didn't like the way some of the characters were sabotaged at the end, specifically Lyta Alexander and Lennier. Lyta starts coming across as some sort of supervillain at the end of season 5 after her experiences with Byron and while growing more powerful.

And Lennier-a guy who's all about duty and service flips out and decides momentarily to betray Sheridan(and by extension Delenn). Yes... they'd set up Lennier as being hopelessly in love with Delenn and jealous of Sheridan. But his actions on the ship wouldn't have helped any chance he'd have had with her anyway. Was he planning to be the one she turns to in grief after Sheridan dies? He knew she didn't love him that way.

5. For all the DS9-B5 comparisons, the shows are really only superficially similar. Yes, they're both about space stations, a major war, and both involve religious themes, but apart from that, I don't see the big deal. The way each show's respective war unfolded was entirely different, the political themes were different, etc. It seems kind of a silly argument to me.

Finally...

I didn't realize how much is left unresolved at the end of season 5 due to the story being continued in spin-offs and TV movies. Perhaps this was my fault as I should have researched this going on, but in my opinion it's a pretty big flaw to have so many plot lines left dangling at the end of what should be, ideally, a self-contained show.

One shouldn't have to do research online to find out about the fates of major characters, the war with the Drakh, the Telepath War, etc. But again, maybe I should have realized this going in.

 

[RoJoHen]

I'd say this was a self-contained series. It wasn't about the Telepath War or the Drakh. It was about the Shadow War and the corruption within EarthGov. As much as I enjoyed the Centauri War in the final season, the show really wasn't about that either. It could have ended in Season 4 just fine.

With the ancient races leaving and the younger races taking over the galaxy, and with the death of President Clark and the end of his evil regime, the story of Babylon 5 was over. Sure, there were other things that continued to happen on Earth and in the galaxy, but they weren't a part of this specific story that was being told.

I do, however, agree 100% about Lennier.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

I didn't realize how much is left unresolved at the end of season 5 due to the story being continued in spin-offs and TV movies. Perhaps this was my fault as I should have researched this going on, but in my opinion it's a pretty big flaw to have so many plot lines left dangling at the end of what should be, ideally, a self-contained show.

One shouldn't have to do research online to find out about the fates of major characters, the war with the Drakh, the Telepath War, etc. But again, maybe I should have realized this going in.

The show is self-contained. It has a beginning, a middle and an end, and the fate of all major characters is known. The fictional universe in which the Babylon 5 story was told, however, didn't stop dead in the tracks when that story was completed, so yes, there are other peripheral stories that take place in that universe. You don't have to do research online and you don't have to find out about them at all.

 

[matthunter]

The G'kar/Londo relationship seems unrealistic to us, since it involves a perspective that many people lack. G'kar as of Season 4 cannot forgive Londo, yet even then Londo's words reveal that he is genuinely contrite and G'kar gives him a sharp glance when he says "I do know who my friends are, and that I have not done as well by them as I should". The seeds are laid fairly early on - Londo is a victim of the Shadows' manipulation - that speaks to a flaw in his character but not any genuine malice towards the Narns.

G'kar, in the meantime, has been manipulated by the Vorlons, but in a very positive way (since the Vorlon involved was Kosh)... he has realised that only letting go of hatred and vengeance will end the war - exactly what one or both sides need to learn in the Israel/Palestine conflict. It's hard for him to do, but he is open to the idea of forgiveness. Londo's own horror concerning just how close to the abyss he came completes the circle, and yet G'kar still gets his "revenge" by helping Londo cheat the will of his Keeper.

It only seems odd because it's the sort of enlightened thinking that very few people are actually capable of. Think of Ghandi when you think of G'kar... Ghandi preached non-violent resistance and could meet and talk amicably with British officials, even though they were oppressing his people.

 

[sonak]

I don't know how you can say that the fates of the major characters are revealed.


In "Sleeping In Light" they just have a toast and mention the various "absent friends." That doesn't tell me what happened to them. (And I don't think Lyta is even mentioned in this) Last we saw Lyta and G'Kar were heading off somewhere together and Lennier was off somewhere on a voyage of self-discovery and repentance.


So...... what happened? (I mean I know NOW what happened because I looked online, but you sure won't get it from "Sleeping In Light." )

Not all of us only care about Sheridan and his close circle, I wanted to know what happened to these other characters.



And the rogue telepaths story and the Drakh influence on the Centauri certainly WERE a part of season 5. Just because they weren't the Shadow War or about President Clark's coup doesn't mean they should've been left as dangling plot threads.



Good points Matt Hunter, I guess if you go for the idea that G'Kar was so changed by his experiences and "enlightenment" he might well have come to really forgive Londo, but to me still not a joke-exchanging buddy of his.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Last we saw Lyta and G'Kar were heading off somewhere together and Lennier was off somewhere on a voyage of self-discovery and repentance.

Yes, see, that's the point. All these characters have left the main story both figuratively and literally, and though they've all had a life beyond what happened on the station, their involvement in the Babylon 5 story has been told. There's nothing to add that's not anecdotal.

And the rogue telepaths story and the Drakh influence on the Centauri certainly WERE a part of season 5. Just because they weren't the Shadow War or about President Clark's coup doesn't mean they should've been left as dangling plot threads.

Those were not really dangling plot threads. They were an indication that nothing ever ends, that every action has consequence, and that every story leads to a different story. The Drakh War is no more a dangling plot thread of the Shadow War that World War II is a dangling plot thread of World War I.

 

[RoJoHen]

And the rogue telepaths story and the Drakh influence on the Centauri certainly WERE a part of season 5. Just because they weren't the Shadow War or about President Clark's coup doesn't mean they should've been left as dangling plot threads.

Those were not really dangling plot threads. They were an indication that nothing ever ends, that every action has consequence, and that every story leads to a different story. The Drakh War is no more a dangling plot thread of the Shadow War that World War II is a dangling plot thread of World War I.

Exactly. B5 was trying to tell a realistic story (within the confines of a scifi world, obviously). It told things on a grand scale about all sorts of alien worlds. It's impossible to completely wrap everything up and still maintain that sort of realism. The universe doesn't just suddenly stop having things happen.

As for "Sleeping in Light," I never had any problem wondering what happened to the characters. I mean, what more is left untold? People lived their lives and went on their own paths. Some remained friends, while others drifted apart. G'Kar and Lyta's story was left open-ended intentionally. It would have just been silly if they had showed up again in the finale. What other characters are we concerned with? What do we need to know? We know what happened to Garibaldi and Franklin and Delenn and Ivanova...who else is there?

 

[Mistral]

And the rogue telepaths story and the Drakh influence on the Centauri certainly WERE a part of season 5. Just because they weren't the Shadow War or about President Clark's coup doesn't mean they should've been left as dangling plot threads.

Those were not really dangling plot threads. They were an indication that nothing ever ends, that every action has consequence, and that every story leads to a different story. The Drakh War is no more a dangling plot thread of the Shadow War that World War II is a dangling plot thread of World War I.

Exactly. B5 was trying to tell a realistic story (within the confines of a scifi world, obviously). It told things on a grand scale about all sorts of alien worlds. It's impossible to completely wrap everything up and still maintain that sort of realism. The universe doesn't just suddenly stop having things happen.

As for "Sleeping in Light," I never had any problem wondering what happened to the characters. I mean, what more is left untold? People lived their lives and went on their own paths. Some remained friends, while others drifted apart. G'Kar and Lyta's story was left open-ended intentionally. It would have just been silly if they had showed up again in the finale. What other characters are we concerned with? What do we need to know? We know what happened to Garibaldi and Franklin and Delenn and Ivanova...who else is there?

And, based on the fact that Vir is Emperor, we know what happened to G'Kar and Londo. It was foretold already. As for Lyta-that's a whole nother story, as they say, and didn't need to be resolved.

 

[sonak]

Um, but WHY didn't we need to know what happened to her?


She was a main character for the last three seasons, she was in the main credits, she was involved in the storyline in a MAJOR way in season 5, and she was really hot.(OK, that last point isn't quite as persuasive but it's true)


Why were certain characters, main characters at that, just deemed too unimportant to have their fates elaborated on?

 

[RoJoHen]

Lyta went off with G'Kar to find herself. Why isn't that enough?

And besides Lyta, who are you complaining about? We know what happened to everybody!

 

[DonIago]

I can't really think of a tv series that ends without you wondering what happens to some of the characters afterward, so I don't see how this is a fault particular to B5.

Heck, I wonder sometimes what happens to the Six Feet Under characters, even though the finale answered that question in atypically definitive fashion.

 

[JoeD80]

Lyta starts coming across as some sort of supervillain at the end of season 5 after her experiences with Byron and while growing more powerful.

Yes exactly. The Vorlons made a weapon out of her. There she is.

But [Lennier's] actions on the ship wouldn't have helped any chance he'd have had with her anyway. Was he planning to be the one she turns to in grief after Sheridan dies? He knew she didn't love him that way.

Obviously he wasn't thinking clearly, which is why he decides to go on a journey to improve himself in Delenn's eyes.

And the rogue telepaths story and the Drakh influence on the Centauri certainly WERE a part of season 5. Just because they weren't the Shadow War or about President Clark's coup doesn't mean they should've been left as dangling plot threads.

I'm not sure what's unresolved here. We know that the Telepath War is going to be financed through Garibaldi and Edgar's industries; we know that Garibaldi won't get his blocks removed for two years; we know that the Psi Corps has ships in hyperspace; we see the first bombing of the Psi Corps headquarters; we know Bester got his hands on a Telepath Virus; we know that the Drakh have fusion bombs planted around Centauri Prime; we know Sheridan has the keeper gift. Did Garibaldi or Bester win? Garibaldi is alive in 2281. How did Sheridan end up on Centauri Prime in 2278? The keeper given to his son on his sixteenth birthday. What happened to Londo and his keeper? We saw G'Kar and Londo strangle each other. Did The Centauri drive the Drakh away? Vir is Emperor in 2281.

She was a main character for the last three seasons, she was in the main credits

Being in the main credits didn't mean main character necessarily. According to Joe the main characters were "Sinclair, Sheridan, Garibaldi, Delenn, Londo, G'Kar, Franklin and to an extent, Ivanova."

 

[Reverend]

I'm not sure what's unresolved here. We know exactly how the Telepath War is going to be financed through Garibaldi and Edgar's industries; we know that Garibaldi won't get his blocks removed for two years; we know that the Psi Corps has ships in hyperspace; we see the first bombing of the Psi Corps headquarters; we know Bester got his hands on a Telepath Virus; we know that the Drakh have fusion bombs planted around Centauri Prime; we know Sheridan has the keeper gift. Did Garibaldi or Bester win? Garibaldi is alive in 2281. How did Sheridan end up on Centauri Prime in 2278? The keeper given to his son on his sixteenth birthday. What happened to Londo and his keeper? We saw G'Kar and Londo strangle each other. Did The Centauri drive the Drakh away? Vir is Emperor in 2281.

^Exactly. Not every single tiny little detail is spoon fed to the viewer. A lot of the broad strokes of what we don't see can be guessed at just by looking at what we do know (as above.)
We knew that the Alliance eventually stepped in and freed Centauri Prime way back in 'War Without End', the plot thread in season 5 was just a way of closing the circle.

That's probably one of the best things about B5 is that it treats it's audience with some respect and proceeds from the assumption that they're not complete idiots. There's plenty left to figure out and I'm fine with that. As others have said, the universe doesn't come to a grinding halt with the last episode. Events continue on their course and to be fair, just from the flash forwards in 'Deconstruction of Falling Stars' we actually know quite a bit of what's coming.

 

[sonak]

It's true that a lot of series finales don't spell out the fates of some major characters. However, most of those finales DON'T take the trouble of setting those episodes TWENTY YEARS IN THE FUTURE. That setting alone would usually indicate that it would be taken advantage of to show what happens in the intervening period. Other than for the group seen on-screen in "Sleeping In Light" this doesn't apply.


I don't mind not having stuff spelled out for me. But if you're going to set a finale far into the future, use that setting to your advantage.


But I don't want my disappointment over the series finale to overshadow that I still thought it was a great show.

 

[propita]

Not clearly remembering things, so please forgive me in advance. I remember a scene of Londo where he is emperor and old. There are a few women and children with him. Who are they? His wives and kids? Kids and grandkids?

If they're his kids, do they never become emperor because Vir is there? Has Londo eliminated hereditary emperors?

I didn't get into any of the sequels, shows or books, so I'm pretty ignorant about after season 5.

 

[JoeD80]

It's true that a lot of series finales don't spell out the fates of some major characters. However, most of those finales DON'T take the trouble of setting those episodes TWENTY YEARS IN THE FUTURE. That setting alone would usually indicate that it would be taken advantage of to show what happens in the intervening period.

If the finale hadn't been set in 2281 we'd actually know less, because we wouldn't know if Lorien's prediction about Sheridan was true, if Garibaldi was alive or not, or if Vir made it through, or that Lennier had died and it seems that Delenn remembers him fondly at this point. At least one part of the intervening years was shown, in War Without End.

Other than for the group seen on-screen in "Sleeping In Light" this doesn't apply.

So the episode should show the fates of characters that don't show up in that episode? (Actually, there is a little hint of something for one: check the credit for Marcus Cole).

Not clearly remembering things, so please forgive me in advance. I remember a scene of Londo where he is emperor and old. There are a few women and children with him. Who are they? His wives and kids? Kids and grandkids?

That scene is from the TV movie "In the Beginning." I believe the novelization says they are Urza Jaddo's kids (from Knives).

 

[Reverend]

^Those were Lyssa and Lucco Deradi, who according to the novelization of 'In the Beginning' were Urza Jaddo's niece and nephew by way of his youngest sister. Like the rest of House Jaddo she became House Mollari following the events of 'Knives', which is why they were living at the Imperial Palace. The woman who was with them was a long time retainer of House Jaddo called Senna, who just so happened to have the same given name as Refa's daughter.

As for the line of succession, Londo had no heirs so he designated Vir as next in line while Cartagia's son is third (don't ask why he didn't inherit the title ahead of Londo, JMS has never said so AFAIK.)

It's true that a lot of series finales don't spell out the fates of some major characters. However, most of those finales DON'T take the trouble of setting those episodes TWENTY YEARS IN THE FUTURE. That setting alone would usually indicate that it would be taken advantage of to show what happens in the intervening period. Other than for the group seen on-screen in "Sleeping In Light" this doesn't apply.

Well if they did that then they'd need another five episodes to adequately explain what happend to everyone in the intervening period, which after just spending the previous four or five episodes setting all the main characters on their paths would have been extremely redundant.

'Sleeping in Light' wasn't meant to be about what happened to everyone, it was about how Sheridan would choose to spend his last days knowing his time was almost up.

 

[Harvey]

We don't find out the fates of all the major characters because the show religiously follows the formula that one season=one year. This worked well, I think, in the first four seasons, but I'd have preferred the epilogue season of the fifth year to had a broader timeline. Alas.

I'd also point out that the feeling at the end of the fifth season is not just that events will happen after the series is over. That events will happen afterwards is obvious. Franklin will of course have a career in his new position, but his departure from the station has a sense of finality to it. When Lennier betrays Sheridan and then heads off into the stars, vowing to return to Delenn in a time of need (as I recall it--it's been a little while) it leaves the viewer expecting more. Likewise, when Londo leaves a Keeper in the jar for David Sheridan, and the camera lingers on the object with ominous music, it feels more like a cliffhanger than an indication that things will happen after the series has finished.

This is not to complain about "Sleeping in Light," which is very satisfying in the closure it offers for Sheridan and many other major characters.

But I'm going in several directions. I need to pack. Perhaps some more thoughts later.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I'm now in the midst of rewatching the show for the first time since it went off the air. I'm only about halfway through Season One right now, but it's fun looking back on the series.

I completely agree that Season Five left a few too many things up in the air and unresolved. After investing five years in a show that was largely sold as a five-year story, you expect most everything to be tied up at the end of those five years. I don't want to have to go read three Psi Corps novels to find out when & if Garbaldi ever got to even the score with Bester. And Lennier betraying Sheridan & Delenn came TOTALLY out of left field.

I have a feeling the show would've been much better-balanced overall if the Season Five renewal had come sooner. That would've allowed JMS to extend a few of the Earth War plot threads into the next year and probably would've helped keep Claudia Christian in the cast. She was sorely missed in the last year.

But overall I still love the show, Seasons 2-4 especially. I'll be interested in seeing if Season Five works any better for me this time around. I'll let you folks know.

 

[DonIago]

I suspect some people in this thread would be very unhappy with LOST.