Just exactly how loyal are the Vorta to their founders?

[kkt]

I suspect there are no male or female Jem Hadar, they're all sexless. The reproduce by cloning, so they don't need the distraction of mating, pregnancy, etc.

 

[kkt]

Regarding the topic question, I look to "THE SHIP" as a barometer.

That Founder died. When that happened, ALL the Jem'Hadar in that incident killed themselves because they believe they failed. The Vorta ended up being the sole survivor.

By that example alone, I say the Jem'Hadar's loyalty is much stronger and deeper than the Vorta.

And looking at the roles both serve in the Dominion, it makes sense. Vorta are essentially upper management, and a vast majority of management cannot be trusted. Jem'Hadar are soldiers... duty and loyalty are big components of a soldier's mindset. I would trust a soldier far more quickly than someone who was upper management. In fact, it is precisely what Sisko says to Ramat'iklan in "ROCKS AND SHOALS", when he says the Vorta's word has no weight with him. But a Jem'Hadar can be trusted with their word.

The Jem'Hadar were always very interesting to me. They were basically a calmer, more efficient version of Klingons. The Jem'Hadar were not really brutal... they were efficient. They were portrayed to be the perfect soldier, and I think that's exactly how they came across.

I wondered if Kilana would also commit suicide, after she delivered the Founder's remains to wherever they need to go and debriefed Dominion intelligence about the actions of Sisko and friends.

 

[at Quark's]

On a side note: Speaking of male and female Vorta and Jem'Hadar, what about male and female founders? Is there anything inherently 'female' about the female founder, really, or is it just the way "she" chooses to represent "her"self?

 

[Kytee]

On a side note: Speaking of male and female Vorta and Jem'Hadar, what about male and female founders? Is there anything inherently 'female' about the female founder, really, or is it just the way "she" chooses to represent "her"self?

For the founders I believe they just choose how they want to appear, with no concept of underlying gender. When the founder is explaining the link to Odo she makes it sound like they are all actually one single entity. She also talks about how sometimes they will choose to be a rock for the sake of being a rock , which is as legitimate an existence for a founder as taking for form of a humanoid.

 

[feral.cherub]

A curious question arises if the founders went extinct how would the Vorta react? The Jem Hadar would likely commit mass suicide or die for lack of ketracel white. Would the Vorta all activate their death button on their necks? Or could the Vorta live without the founders?

Maybe they would take up expressionist dancing and art. Perhaps play paintball but with real bullets and guns.
Maybe they'd make Rome rise as a world power again and have gladiator games where they throw spoonheads, hew-mons and Bajorans to the lions while they tried to figure out what orgies we're and if there were any benefits to having them in the midst of all the madness.(Like the good old days!)

Weyoun# 101: Tell me again, Yelgrun, why are we doing this?
Yelgrun 1984: For the glory of Rome, sir.

 

[feral.cherub]

Weyoun would look adorable with a Laurel wreath and maybe Gul Dukat and Damar would be forced to dress scantily and fan them in the colosseum, and Damar would stash some Kanar nearby to stay good and drunk so he could be obliterated during all the humiliation.

Perhaps some remaining Jem'hadar to be Centurions.

 

[arch101]

How loyal are the Vorta? If you look up loyal in the dictionary.....
I mean, with the averted eyes and the from-the-heart “the Founder is wise!” just after the female founder makes a huge tactical error. It isn’t reaffy fair though, they’re designed to be loyal.

 

[feral.cherub]

How loyal are the Vorta? If you look up loyal in the dictionary.....
I mean, with the averted eyes and the from-the-heart “the Founder is wise!” just after the female founder makes a huge tactical error. It isn’t reaffy fair though, they’re designed to be loyal.

Some humans are 'designed' to be loyal (indoctrinated from birth through age 7 hard wires dogma, cult teachings, etc.)in their formative years. It will litterally become part of their physical brain development because the brain is still in formation till age 8, when they reach the proportions (not size) of adults. It is difficult, but it is possible to break away from a cult you were indoctrinated into-or made that way when you reach full physical, vital, emotional (puberty) and mental growth between ages 28 and 30.
I just somehow picture the freed Vorta becoming decadent hedonists.
Just my opinion, I take it all with a grain of salt and let my imagination wander where it will.

 

[kkt]

I can see a freed Weyoun being a total hedonist, or Kilana. The different Vorta seems to have pretty different personalities.

 

[Timo]

I suspect there are no male or female Jem Hadar, they're all sexless. The reproduce by cloning, so they don't need the distraction of mating, pregnancy, etc.

Curiously enough, we don't actually hear that the Jem'Hadar would be created by cloning. They are

- genetically engineered
- generated in birthing chambers
- given accelerated maturing, and
- denied reproduction, sexual or otherwise

but not stated to be cloned, unlike the Vorta.

In keeping with that, there are no explicit "duplicates" of any Jem'Hadar characters, even when there are identical copies of the Vorta, with a story emphasis on this. Although of course we might just fail to see the identical twins of our Jem'Hadar characters, perhaps due to a Dominion policy of not deploying identicals in the same unit.

That the Jem'Hadar would be all male is far from said, too. None are female, but odds are not clearly on either side of the mirror argument. On one hand, why make the effort to give the warriors male bits? On the other, the Founders would be aware of the efficacy of rape as a weapon of terror and war among humans and supposedly many other humanoids as well.

How much can be hardwired into the brain of an intelligent creature is debatable. The Jem'Hadar are quite capable of guile, and of getting fatally distracted by abstract pursuits - even if they are not sexual creatures, a bona fide penis length contest brings them down in "One Little Ship" nevertheless. Despite this, they are fiercely loyal in all their known appearances. As far as we know, even the "rebel" Jem'Hadar in "To the Death" were being fiercely loyal to the best of their knowledge, and we just never saw their side of the argument. The "rebels" in "Hippocratic Oath" stayed loyal enough to the goals of the Dominion, after all. So it need not be a case of indoctrination amounting to removal of free will - it can be classic indoctrination through free will, with consenting adults deciding to surrender to loyalty.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Farscape One]

Actually, in "TO THE DEATH", when Dax was talking with Virak'ara on the bridge of the Defiant, he said there are no female Jem'Hadar, along with saying they don't eat or sleep, as the White is all they need. He also said no Jem'Hadar has lived to be 30 years old.

 

[TheSeeker]

On the other, the Founders would be aware of the efficacy of rape as a weapon of terror and war among humans and supposedly many other humanoids as well.

It is rather chilly to think of giving ''dangly bits" to a Jem'hadar for the use of rape. However, in real life, it's going on all the time. And one of the most powerful weapons in one's arsenal is demoralization.

I know it can be fun to theorize about what makes DS9 tick, but rape is not one of those things. This is DS9, not Game of Thrones, or real life for that matter. There's really no need to bring it into this discussion. This forum should be a comfortable place for all posters and this is wandering into troubling territory that could make a lot of posters uncomfortable. I would please ask that you refrain from going down this road any further.

Thank you

 

[kkt]

I forgot all about the pod episode!

It is rather chilly to think of giving ''dangly bits" to a Jem'hadar for the use of rape. However, in real life, it's going on all the time. And one of the most powerful weapons in one's arsenal is demoralization.

Wait, what? What penis length contest?? In the words of Pink Floyd, "It's nearly a laugh but it's really a cry."
I must have been taking a leak when that happened! I don't want it to be funny but it sort of is. xD

Not a literal penis length contest. Alpha Quadrant Jem Hadar are better than Gamma Quadrant, no they aren't, yes they are, etc. etc.