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Just curious about something regarding Shakaar...

Quinton O'Connor

Commodore
Commodore
I'm still quite a ways away from his introduction into the series, but spoil all you want, as I've seen the show before in the past.

I'm wondering how jarring it is that he's only seen a few times, despite his position and eventual relationship with Kira? I wouldn't think so much of it, what with the series shifting its focus toward the Dominion over time, but the relationship part is what sort of baffles me. Is it one of those things where Kira keeps mentioning him as an aside but nothing ever happens, and then they call it off away from cameras? Or is it done somewhat well despite the actor's extremely limited appearances?

Yes, I realize I'll arrive at my own conclusions once my rewatch gets there anyway, but I'm curious, dammit.
 
I'm wondering how jarring it is that he's only seen a few times, despite his position and eventual relationship with Kira? I wouldn't think so much of it, what with the series shifting its focus toward the Dominion over time, but the relationship part is what sort of baffles me.

Shakaar could/should have been a more interesting character than he turned out to be. It was probably a mistake to cast and conceive of the character as a replacement love interest for Kira in the wake of Bareil's death. This led to the choice of a good-looking, soft-spoken actor to play a character who had no real identity beyond his past connection to Kira and his "eligibility" as a potential romance. A disappointment all around.

The episode in which he first appears, aptly entitled Shakaar, is solid but mostly not because of him. Not that he is horrible or anything, but he doesn't make much of an impression.

He then ends up serving as a "Paolo" with respect to Odo's unrequited love in Crossfire, and later returns to be a bit of a dick to O'Brien in whatever episode Kira gives birth. After that he drops out of the picture and is only mentioned a time or two. I wouldn't call his lack of impact "jarring" exactly, but at any rate he is an example of a recurring character on DS9 who never produces anything significant.

Is it one of those things where Kira keeps mentioning him as an aside but nothing ever happens, and then they call it off away from cameras? Or is it done somewhat well despite the actor's extremely limited appearances?

"Yes" and "No" respectively. The period of their relationship does coincide with Nana Visitor's pregnancy, though, which may in part explain why no further attempts were made to explore this relationship in a substantive way during that time.
 
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Shakaar could/should have been a more interesting character than he turned out to be. It was probably a mistake to cast and conceive of the character as a replacement love interest for Kira in the wake of Bareil's death. This led to the choice of a good-looking, soft-spoken actor to play a character who had no real identity beyond his past connection to Kira and his "eligibility" as a potential romance. A disappointment all around.

Kind of odd, then, that they'd bother killing Bareil. I haven't seen the episode in which he dies in a long time (but will soon enough, obviously) so I don't know how well it serves the plot and whatnot. But it does seem a bit strange that they would go about killing him only to replace him with a description you just wrote for the character of Shakaar that sounds... very similar.

The episode in which he first appears, aptly entitled Shakaar, is solid but mostly not because of him. Not that he is horrible or anything, but he doesn't make much of an impression.

He then ends up serving as a "Paolo" with respect to Odo's unrequited love in Crossfire, and later returns to be a bit of a dick to O'Brien in whatever episode Kira gives birth. After that he drops out of the picture and is only mentioned a time or two. I wouldn't call his lack of impact "jarring" exactly, but at any rate he is an example of a recurring character on DS9 who never produces anything significant.
A shame. As a kid when I'd watch DS9 I usually assumed everyone had a really deep place in the story's mythos, and I was just too young to grasp it. Sometimes I miss that naivete!

"Yes" and "No" respectively. The period of their relationship does coincide with Nana Visitor's pregnancy, though, which may in part explain why no further attempts were made to explore this relationship in a substantive way during that time.

Oh well. I'm not the biggest fan of romance in my stories anyway. Unless of course it serves a strong role in character development and leads to good, solid drama. Kira/Odo is one of the few 'ships', as... some... would say... that I can get behind. Kira/Shakaar sounds pretty flat and, most importantly, irrelevant. Kind of a shame, eh?
 
Kind of odd, then, that they'd bother killing Bareil.

Old habits die hard. I think that is basically the reason. DS9 shakes off a lot of the TNG baggage as far as storytelling styles is concerned, but only gradually and in fits and starts. It can be interesting to watch this happen, but also frustrating.

For example, the writers obviously make some major progress in season 2, but with the arrival of some of the TNG writers in season 3 there is a bit of regression. Basically, Bareil dies because the writers weren't yet comfortable with the idea of loose ends floating around that could be exploited later. They had no immediate use for Bareil and so he was killed off. I think it's safe to say that, if the writers had a character who had received this type of development in the later seasons, he would not have been disposed of as quickly.

Oh well. I'm not the biggest fan of romance in my stories anyway. Unless of course it serves a strong role in character development and leads to good, solid drama. Kira/Odo is one of the few 'ships', as... some... would say... that I can get behind. Kira/Shakaar sounds pretty flat and, most importantly, irrelevant. Kind of a shame, eh?

Kira/Odo is probably the only truly successful romance in Trek that lasts beyond a single episode or two, which seems odd, considering they are superficially such an unlikely couple, and considering the actors were both concerned that actually consummating the relationship would be a bad idea. In the end, the reason it works is, as you say, the writers actually examine what the relationship might mean for the characters involved and find some extremely satisfying answers.

In real life, of course, just enjoying a person's company or finding that person attractive is enough of a basis for a relationship, but in fiction there has to be more layers of meaning for a relationship to be anything other than standard soap opera fare, or some variation on an existing cliché. Jadzia/Worf, for example, is basically a long series of clichés. Some of them work okay, but there is nothing deeper going on there. Ditto for Ezri/Julian. On the other hand, Kira/Odo is about many different things at once. Here I am forced to paraphrase Michelle Erica Green, who I think really puts this beautifully: passion of the soul over physical limitations, triumph over adversity, common ground over alien difference, future over past, infinite diversity in infinite combinations.

That said, I'm glad the writers went ahead with some of the other romances on the show, despite the fact that the rest of them never produced anything as significant as Kira/Odo: it's just silly to have these characters who spend so much time together never get interested in one another, never fall in love except with a random guest star, etc., just as it is silly to never have them disagree. A certain amount of admittedly unoriginal romance helps these characters feel like real people even though the love stories themselves are nothing special (with the one important exception).

Back to Shakaar, the lack of results with his character is a bit of a shame indeed, because I think the show could have used one more strong Bajoran character. Kira and Kai Winn are great, and Bareil was solid while alive, but Shakaar would have been a logical third choice for the later seasons as the leader of Kira's resistance cell and first minister of Bajor. Sadly, it never materialized.
 
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Well said, sir.

Michelle Erica Green sounds like one hell of a reviewer. Remind me to cite her as an inspiration for trying my hardest with my own entries. Her explanation of what makes Kira/Odo work so well is fantastic.
 
Well said, sir.

Michelle Erica Green sounds like one hell of a reviewer. Remind me to cite her as an inspiration for trying my hardest with my own entries. Her explanation of what makes Kira/Odo work so well is fantastic.

Overall I find that her reviews vary greatly in quality. She is very opinionated and sometimes lacks a bit of critical distance imo. She is a huge fan of Kira, for example, a point of view that I share, but at times that does tend to dominate her reviews. One third of a review can be devoted to Kira's minor role in the episode's B-story ;)

Also, she finds the Klingon honor stuff intolerably boring. The above two opinions lead her to be very concerned with the show's direction in season 4 (which includes the arrival of the Klingons and is undoubtedly the weakest season as far as Kira episodes are concerned). Understandable anxiety during the show's original run, but she does overreact a bit and doesn't really give the fourth season enough credit for being very good despite the shake-ups.

Anyway, her Chimera review is very perceptive and that is not the only one. It's interesting to compare with Jammer (whose sensibility I tend to share for the most part) and Tim Lynch (whose reviews I tend not to agree with as often, but who is also quite thorough).
 
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You actually addressed my issue with Michelle just now. I didn't bring it up because I didn't see a reason to, but in the random clicks I've made on her reviews in the past few weeks, I've noticed she really seems to think the show is on life support during the fourth year and doesn't seem too impressed with the fifth year, either. In my wanderings across the internet far and wide, I've seen that the general consensus on those two seasons is that the former is nicely consistent and the latter is one of, if not the best point in the entire run. It's all the Klingon stuff, I take it. Michelle, like the both of us, is a fan of Kira... and I remember reading Jammer's statement that Kira was toned down and the 'one real casualty' (or something) once Worf joined the station, and that she was thankfully picked back up for the next season.
 
It's all the Klingon stuff, I take it. Michelle, like the both of us, is a fan of Kira... and I remember reading Jammer's statement that Kira was toned down and the 'one real casualty' (or something) once Worf joined the station, and that she was thankfully picked back up for the next season.

Pretty much the Klingon stuff, yeah, with Kira having her biggest lull of the series' entire run at the same time, partly due to her pregnancy, partly due no doubt to Worf being showcased in a lot of command scenarios (that Kira again takes over in the later seasons). From the point of view of the series' original run, this period could actually be perceived as continuing until mid-season 5, when Kira gets a couple of very substantial episodes in a row: The Darkness and the Light and Ties of Blood and Water.

Basically, after being probably the show's strongest character (debatably with Odo and maybe Quark) in the first few seasons, she fades into the background a bit for a season and a half before coming back to the forefront in a big way in the last two and a half seasons. Really, when it comes right down to it, I think this is the main reason Ms. Green is sour on the show for a while there, even though the quality is overall still very high. Meanwhile she can hardly contain her glee when Kira takes command of the Defiant at the end of season 6 and confronts the Romulans at the beginning of season 7. To quote her review of Shadows and Symbols:

Michelle Erica Green said:
Kira RULED! RULED! RULED! (Have I mentioned I love Kira?)

LoL! I agree, naturally, but anyway it does strongly influence her opinion of the middle seasons.

Jammer (also a fan of Kira, of course!) notices the same problem in season 4, but is a bit more measured in his criticism, and doesn't let it affect his overall opinion of the show to the same degree.
 
Jammer seems of the opinion that the second, fifth and seventh seasons were the high marks of the show's run, while the fourth and sixth were both quite good and the first and third were the weakest, but still more than watchable. I look forward to measuring my stance against his when all is said and done, and I've even been considering doing season analyses like he did.

I see what you mean about Michelle. Sheesh, all this talk of the greats is making me feel insecure. I feel like I ramble a bit over-much sometimes, but it's just how I am. Looking at the average length of a Jammer review versus mine is kind of hilarious. I feel entirely too overstated, you know? But that's just how I roll. I talk a lot.
 
I look forward to measuring my stance against his when all is said and done, and I've even been considering doing season analyses like he did.

I think it's a good idea with DS9, where every season is a coherent chapter in the on-going saga, with its own identity and contributions to the whole.

The season summaries are often where the best ideas crystallize in Jammer's reviews, for example.

I feel entirely too overstated, you know? But that's just how I roll. I talk a lot.

Not the gravest of sins on a forum such as this ;)
 
I think it's a good idea with DS9, where every season is a coherent chapter in the on-going saga, with its own identity and contributions to the whole.

The season summaries are often where the best ideas crystallize in Jammer's reviews, for example.

Yeah, that really does sum up the seasons rather nicely. Thanks, I'll give it some more serious consideration now.

Not the gravest of sins on a forum such as this ;)

This is true. :lol:
 
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