Spoilers Jurati in episode 5 & which side is Narek on?

[Anters]

I think we have enough information now to infer why Dr Juraati killed Maddox, and whether Commander Oh, Narek and his sister are Tal Shiar or Zhat Vash. But I have some questions, if anyone can help?

In episode 5, when Jurati killed Maddox she said that she "wished she didn’t know what she knows and hadn’t seen what she’d been shown". What is she talking about?

Well in the preview at the end of episode 1, we see someone initiating a mind meld with her. That person is Commodore Oh, which we know from episode 3, because when Jurati meets Oh her clothing and necklace match those in the mind meld scene.

But what could she have been shown that would entice her to kill her lover? It must be the ‘profound and terrifying’ secret about the Seb-Cheneb (The Destroyer). If correct, then that would make Commodore Oh a member of the Zhat Vash.

However, this doesn’t necessarily make her subordinates (Narek and his sister) Zhat Vash. Who’s to say that Oh isn’t a Zhat Vash plant inside the Tal Shiar? Well, we can rule that out because Maddox’s lab was destroyed by the Tal Shiar, yet the siblings and Oh are still trying to work out its location from Soji. i.e. they’re Zhat Vash not Tal Shiar.

This also means the Tal Shiar and Zhat Vash aren’t working together, and the Tal Shiar seem to be ahead of the game...which is a bit odd given Zhat Vash are supposed to the the guardians of secrets.

Can anyone workout how they're ahead? And how come they aren't working together? It doesn't make sense, because surely the "secret" about the Destroyer is common knowledge amongst Romulans, since they all hate AI? Or is there more to the secret that the Zhat Vash haven't let on?

 

[The Old Mixer]

I've tweaked the thread title to make it a bit less spoilerish to people on the outside.

 

[Lord Garth]

I'm leaning toward Narek switches sides to wherever Soji is, which will eventually mean the La Sirena. Partially because he loves Soji and partially because he doesn't want to get killed by Rizzo.

 

[Tarek71]

Some of this has come up on other threads.

I would say that the Tal Shiar and Zhat Vash are two different things. The Zhat Vash being Vulcan Blade Runners originally founded to eliminate the synths created by the Vulcans centuries ago in the years just before the rise of Surak. These Vulcan Cylons may have been disposable soldiers that the Vulcans tried to suppress and eliminate after the end of the last wars.

Some escape this suppression, and become the Romulans. However they do not know they are synths and the Vulcans, as a way to limit the Cylon/Romulans, programmed them with a deep seeded, sub conscious aversion to creating AI, or the use of neural networking between them. A common neural interface would make the synths like the Borg and therefore harder to defeat and so it is important to prevent that from happening.

The Zhat Vash, after discovering the new home of their Cylon offspring infiltrate the Tal Shiar and other institutions of Romulan society and have been doing so for centuries.

The Romulan Mythology issue I believe is involved in unraveling the origins of the Romulans, including that they are all bio-synths. That being a major component of the deep dark secret. The Borg, Maddox, Narek and the Federation synths are the other major parts of this.

 

[Campe]

he loves Soji

He knew her for like five minutes before saying that!

 

[Tarek71]

I think Oh gives Jurati the impression that Maddox is responsible not only for the synths, but for the synth attack on Mars. Narek meanwhile is a double or even triple agent (Tal Shiar, Zhat Vash and Borg) who wants ultimately to side with Soji, whom he has developed real feelings for despite this initially being only a mission to get close to her. But there is no happy ending here.

 

[The Old Mixer]

He knew her for like five minutes before saying that!

Five interminable, cringe-inducing minutes.

 

[Lord Garth]

He knew her for like five minutes before saying that!

You know what they say. Love at first sight.

 

[eschaton]

I'm leaning toward Narek switches sides to wherever Soji is, which will eventually mean the La Sirena. Partially because he loves Soji and partially because he doesn't want to get killed by Rizzo.

Narek is a main character of the season. We know that next episode Picard will get to the cube, meet Soji, and rescue her, probably bringing her to meet Riker in the following episode. We also know from comments prior to release that Narek and Elnor eventually come into conflict because Elnor's "absolute candor" does not work well with Narek's more traditional Romulan upbringing. All of this is pointing to Narek being onboard the ship with the rest of the crew for most of the final run of the season - whether as a prisoner or a willing passenger.

Also, if Soji bugged off and left Narek alone, it would be very hard to include him in the remainder of the season unless you wanted more and more repetitive scenes involving his sister humiliating him.

 

[Anters]

Some of this has come up on other threads.

I would say that the Tal Shiar and Zhat Vash are two different things. The Zhat Vash being Vulcan Blade Runners originally founded to eliminate the synths created by the Vulcans centuries ago in the years just before the rise of Surak. These Vulcan Cylons may have been disposable soldiers that the Vulcans tried to suppress and eliminate after the end of the last wars.

Some escape this suppression, and become the Romulans. However they do not know they are synths and the Vulcans, as a way to limit the Cylon/Romulans, programmed them with a deep seeded, sub conscious aversion to creating AI, or the use of neural networking between them. A common neural interface would make the synths like the Borg and therefore harder to defeat and so it is important to prevent that from happening.

The Zhat Vash, after discovering the new home of their Cylon offspring infiltrate the Tal Shiar and other institutions of Romulan society and have been doing so for centuries.

The Romulan Mythology issue I believe is involved in unraveling the origins of the Romulans, including that they are all bio-synths. That being a major component of the deep dark secret. The Borg, Maddox, Narek and the Federation synths are the other major parts of this.

Wow! that’s a can of worms I’ve opened up. Thanks for summarising those other threads.

I don’t doubt the legitimacy of this narrative, but I do question its plausibility, because there are at least a few issues. It sounds a bit half-baked in a Kurzman/Chabon kind of way.

Firstly, even if the Romulans could some how forget their origins, there’s no way Vulcans can, especially given: (a) the Vulcan Katra, in which a person’s essence and knowledge is passed on, presumably including Romulan Cylon origins, and it’s implausible to think that billions of Vulcans since the time before Surak managed to kept it secret from the Federation, Romulans, and others; (b) the level of technological advancement of Vulcan to create such Cylons would have co-existed with equally sophisticated tech to digitally record Vulcan social/cultural/scientific history thus making its presence in the Vulcan archive indelible.

Secondly, there’s the issue procreation and inter-species reproduction and how they could possibly work?

Thirdly, security protocols of transporters would presumably scan for anomalous patterns, with especially close scrutiny of Federation enemies. And I don’t buy the story of how Julianna Soong managed to avoid detection in transporters, because a transporter can surely only materialise what it can ‘see’/detect….if the synthetic parts are hidden/undetectable, then the transporter will surely be unable to rematerialise them - it can’t recreate things it can’t detect.

Fourthly, while indeed a hugely devastating secret to Romulans (if true), I don’t see how it could psychologically affect Dr Jurati such that it would cause her to murder Maddox, or so deeply cause her to regret her part in the creation of Dahj and Soji.

Her regret and need to make amends is so great that she felt it necessary to betray Picard and the entire team, so that she could be in a position to kill Soji (assuming that’s her intent).

Lastly, it doesn’t explain why the submatrix of the Borg Cube collapsed upon the assimilation Ramdha et al or is that entirely about the Seb-Cheneb ‘secret’?.

 

[Tarek71]

Wow! that’s a can of worms I’ve opened up. Thanks for summarising those other threads.

I don’t doubt the legitimacy of this narrative, but I do question its plausibility, because there are at least a few issues. It sounds a bit half-baked in a Kurzman/Chabon kind of way.

Firstly, even if the Romulans could some how forget their origins, there’s no way Vulcans can, especially given: (a) the Vulcan Katra, in which a person’s essence and knowledge is passed on, presumably including Romulan Cylon origins, and it’s implausible to think that billions of Vulcans since the time before Surak managed to kept it secret from the Federation, Romulans, and others; (b) the level of technological advancement of Vulcan to create such Cylons would have co-existed with equally sophisticated tech to digitally record Vulcan social/cultural/scientific history thus making its presence in the Vulcan archive indelible.

Secondly, there’s the issue procreation and inter-species reproduction and how they could possibly work?

Thirdly, security protocols of transporters would presumably scan for anomalous patterns, with especially close scrutiny of Federation enemies. And I don’t buy the story of how Julianna Soong managed to avoid detection in transporters, because a transporter can surely only materialise what it can ‘see’/detect….if the synthetic parts are hidden/undetectable, then the transporter will surely be unable to rematerialise them - it can’t recreate things it can’t detect.

Fourthly, while indeed a hugely devastating secret to Romulans (if true), I don’t see how it could psychologically affect Dr Jurati such that it would cause her to murder Maddox, or so deeply cause her to regret her part in the creation of Dahj and Soji.

Her regret and need to make amends is so great that she felt it necessary to betray Picard and the entire team, so that she could be in a position to kill Soji (assuming that’s her intent).

Lastly, it doesn’t explain why the submatrix of the Borg Cube collapsed upon the assimilation Ramdha et al or is that entirely about the Seb-Cheneb ‘secret’?.

I didnt give all of it from the other threads. Some of which covers these questions. Let me give you the rest of the speculation:

1. The Borg deliberately sabotaged the Cube. It is a trojan horse. The Cube is riddled with hard to detect computer viruses. Also, the Borg have infiltrated the elicit trade in Borg tech. Also hiding invasive programs and viruses that will allow them to hack and access anything the Borg tech interfaces with.

2. Jurati is told told that the work of Maddox not only created the synths, but also led to the synth attack. Actually he is a patsy. A NuBSG Baltar who may have entered the Code, but the Borg slipped in some fatal computer code that allowed them to hack and reprogram the synths and that THEY are who had them attack Mars.

3. Narek was on that Romulan ship that was assimilated by the Borg and whose reclaimed survivors are being studied by Soji. He was assimilated along with the rest. But he is without obvious implants. Instead, the Borg embed an activation and control feature since he is a synth like all other Romulans.

4. The Romulans are bio-synths, and like the Blade Runner synths cannot be detected by tissue, blood or DNA samples. They read to normal medical analysis as biological life.

5. Most Vulcans dont know about the Synths, the Zhat Vash or anything else related to this. They believe the narrative that these were Vulcans who rejected the teaching of Surak. When in fact they were Cylon Vulcans who escaped suppression.

Is this a crazy story? Yes. Is it would I have done, if I were writing this? No. But I am now convinced that that is what they will est this season.

 

[Karellen]

In trying to come up with a theory I realized that I'm completely unclear about the timeline of events in Picard. I haven't read the comics or any other supplemental sources of information, so it would be great if someone could fill in the gaps or maybe even add other relevant events for me.

1? week ago--Dahj is killed.

2 weeks ago--Dr. Maddox evades the Tal Shiar/Zhat Vash and arrives on Freecloud.

???? --Dr. Maddox' secret? lab gets destroyed and he goes into hiding.

3 years ago--Dr. Maddox creates Dahj, Soji, and possibly more sentient "flesh and blood" synths.

????--Dr. Maddox takes out a "loan" from Bajezil.***

13 years ago--Bajezil is harvesting Borg components (possibly for Dr. Maddox' research)

14 years ago-- Mars is attacked and all android research is halted. Dr. Maddox Disappears.

???? -- The Artifact somehow ends up in Romulan space.

16 years ago--A group of Romulans are the last individuals assimilated by the Borg vessel now known as the Artifact before it was disconnected from the Collective.

***I have no Idea when this is supposed to take place


Maybe the process of creating these highly complex, human-like synths doesn't involve creating a new being from scratch at all but instead is similar to Borg's assimilation process--a fusion of people and machines. Cyborgs. The big secret could have to do with the origin of the Borg. Maybe creation of sentient synths (or cyborgs) like Dahj and her sister is the first step towards the emergence of a Borg-like society that inevitably destroys its creators. It's also possible that there is a Mass-Effect style cycle of destruction and creation going on. I seriously hope that's not it. I don't want to be right about any of it.

 

[T'Bonz]

I'm not buying that Narek has "developed feelings" for Soji. Whose side is he on? His own. For whom is he working? Now that's a good question. He's not necessarily working only for his sister although he's trying to stay on her good side because today is not a good day to die for the Romulan.

He could be working for any or all of the three groups involved.

I'm hoping this isn't a Borg origins story or that the Romulans or Vulcans are part synth. Because I will throw something heavy at my TV if that is the case and given the situation in China at the moment, replacing it would take too long.

P.S. Also - NO JANEWAY. It's a bit of a stretch to have Seven show up on a Picard show, but I can live with that. Just.

 

[Anters]

I didnt give all of it from the other threads. Some of which covers these questions. Let me give you the rest of the speculation:

1. The Borg deliberately sabotaged the Cube. It is a trojan horse. The Cube is riddled with hard to detect computer viruses. Also, the Borg have infiltrated the elicit trade in Borg tech. Also hiding invasive programs and viruses that will allow them to hack and access anything the Borg tech interfaces with.
....
Is this a crazy story? Yes. Is it would I have done, if I were writing this? No. But I am now convinced that that is what they will est this season.

Fascinating thanks for further summarising the other threads. This information cannot be gleaned from canon and Picard episodes alone, but must’ve come from leaks.

I have to agree that it’s all a bit too barmy which makes it all the more likely to be what Kurtzman & Chabon have in mind.

 

[Anters]

1. The Borg deliberately sabotaged the Cube. It is a trojan horse. The Cube is riddled with hard to detect computer viruses. Also, the Borg have infiltrated the elicit trade in Borg tech. Also hiding invasive programs and viruses that will allow them to hack and access anything the Borg tech interfaces with.

It’s plausible that the Borg cube is a trap and a decent plot twist. But, it would mean that Ramdah and the other Romulans did not cause the collapse of the submatrix upon being assimilated, and therefore the Zhat Vash secret about Seb-Cheneb isn’t deadly to the Borg as a kind of virus (which was a theory I was proposing).

 

[Anters]

2. Jurati is told told that the work of Maddox not only created the synths, but also led to the synth attack. Actually he is a patsy. A NuBSG Baltar who may have entered the Code, but the Borg slipped in some fatal computer code that allowed them to hack and reprogram the synths and that THEY are who had them attack Mars.

I don’t buy that Jurati killed Maddox because of the Mars synth attack, because that’s in the past and he wasn’t responsible (even if his synths were key). If she were punishing him that would put her in a vindictive/judgemental frame of mind, but she was emotionally conflicted when killing him. Her emotional state is better explained if she's been shown something in the future that she can stop...e.g. the seb-cheneb destroyer, and her goal is to ensure it doesn’t happen by killing everyone involved (Terminator-style) including Soji, and herself. If correct, then she will either commit suicide at some point or get killed trying to murder Soji.

What I don’t understand is how she’s going to get away with Maddox’s murder…as there’s no way to cover it up, especially with the EMH as a witness.

 

[Anters]

3. Narek was on that Romulan ship that was assimilated by the Borg and whose reclaimed survivors are being studied by Soji. He was assimilated along with the rest. But he is without obvious implants. Instead, the Borg embed an activation and control feature since he is a synth like all other Romulans.

The Romulans from the Shaenor were mentally traumatised by their assimilation, so why isn’t Narek mentally damaged like the others? Even if he has fewer implants, surely it’s not the implants that cause it but rather the process itself?

I think the plot twist is going to be that Narek really is falling for Soji, thus he will aid in her escape by trying to activate her (something we kind of glimpsed in the preview at the end of episode 5), that will gain the trust of Picard and a place in his crew.

This would create an interesting sibling battle with his sister that could produce all sorts of future teasers based on trust.

 

[Anters]

4. The Romulans are bio-synths, and like the Blade Runner synths cannot be detected by tissue, blood or DNA samples. They read to normal medical analysis as biological life.

I think the Romulan origin theory with them being created by Vulcans has just too many holes to be credible. Only Kurtzman could dream up nonsense like this.

Passing DNA and other tests is plausible, but they would come up as anomalous in transporter patterns especially with close scrutiny of Federation enemies. And I don’t buy the story of how Julianna Tainer/Soong managed to avoid detection in transporters, because a transporter can surely only materialise what it can ‘see’/detect….if the synthetic parts are hidden/undetectable, then the transporter will surely be unable to rematerialise them - it can’t recreate things it can’t detect.

 

[Anters]

5. Most Vulcans dont know about the Synths, the Zhat Vash or anything else related to this. They believe the narrative that these were Vulcans who rejected the teaching of Surak. When in fact they were Cylon Vulcans who escaped suppression.

The Vulcan Katra surely stops any possibly that the Vulcans have forgotten they built the Romulan synths, because whole point of Katra is so the Vulcans can pass on their knowledge and experiences.

If this is really what Kurtzman is going for then it defies logic unless you ignore canon, at which it stops being Trek.

 

[Anters]

In trying to come up with a theory I realized that I'm completely unclear about the timeline of events in Picard. I haven't read the comics or any other supplemental sources of information, so it would be great if someone could fill in the gaps or maybe even add other relevant events for me.

1? week ago--Dahj is killed.

2 weeks ago--Dr. Maddox evades the Tal Shiar/Zhat Vash and arrives on Freecloud.

???? --Dr. Maddox' secret? lab gets destroyed and he goes into hiding.

3 years ago--Dr. Maddox creates Dahj, Soji, and possibly more sentient "flesh and blood" synths.

????--Dr. Maddox takes out a "loan" from Bajezil.***

13 years ago--Bajezil is harvesting Borg components (possibly for Dr. Maddox' research)

14 years ago-- Mars is attacked and all android research is halted. Dr. Maddox Disappears.

???? -- The Artifact somehow ends up in Romulan space.

16 years ago--A group of Romulans are the last individuals assimilated by the Borg vessel now known as the Artifact before it was disconnected from the Collective.

***I have no Idea when this is supposed to take place


Maybe the process of creating these highly complex, human-like synths doesn't involve creating a new being from scratch at all but instead is similar to Borg's assimilation process--a fusion of people and machines. Cyborgs. The big secret could have to do with the origin of the Borg. Maybe creation of sentient synths (or cyborgs) like Dahj and her sister is the first step towards the emergence of a Borg-like society that inevitably destroys its creators. It's also possible that there is a Mass-Effect style cycle of destruction and creation going on. I seriously hope that's not it. I don't want to be right about any of it.

I've been puzzling over this as well, but it just makes my head hurt too much. I think Kurtzman purposefully wants to hide the timeline in case it brings up any inconsistencies in his story.