Journey to Babel Deforest Kelley Smoking

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by The Warlord, Aug 4, 2019.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Nitpicking specific imperfections does not translate to damning the entire practice in general. Obviously when people try something, they won't always succeed. But that doesn't mean it's wrong for anyone to try it at all.

    Any human creation is imperfect. That's a given. There were plenty of imperfections in TOS, and there were plenty of imperfections in TOS-R. Sometimes TOS-R improved on the original, sometimes it didn't. That's the nature of human effort. Any creation is imperfect, and that's why creators generally aren't as opposed to revising or updating their works as fans tend to be -- because nobody sees the imperfections more clearly than the creators themselves.
     
  2. Maurice

    Maurice Admiral Premium Member

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    Yep. You give some good examples.

    The blue certainly looks intentional and not necessarily related to the rear-projection, but even if it were an artifact of that, removing the sculpture does ruin the shot composition. And this remains my big objection to these kinds of changes: the people making them are often/typically not filmmakers and do not understand the fundamentals of cinematography. I had a lovely brief chat with John Dykstra in June where we bitched to each other about this. :D

    Dykstra proof!
    [​IMG]

    This is exactly what I mean about the TOS-R shots not looking "of a piece" with the rest of the show. The show's cinematographic style often bled into the effects shots: like those colors on the asteroid and the purplish light on the Klingon ship, or the multicolored cube in "Corbomite". The TOS-R stuff mostly looks like it belongs to a different show made decades later.

    And TAS's "Yesteryear". There's also a fundamental misunderstanding of how horizon lines work. The horizon doesn't vanish just because you raise the setting up a few hundred feet.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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  3. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Well, it was made decades later. It made no secret of that.
     
  4. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Good thing I never said anything like that, then:
    Bolded for emphasis.
    Again, you're attributing things to me that I never said. At no point did I say that TOS-R shouldn't have been done. What I was doing was protesting your assertion that the new effects shots were always respecting creator intent on TOS and that they were things the creators would've done themselves if they could have. And I think I cited enough examples to prove that wasn't always the case.

    I'd appreciate it if in the future, you could respond to the arguments I actually made, instead just making up ones that are easier for you to shoot down.
    Since I'm a creator myself, I don't really need this pointed out to me. I'm a stand-up comedian, freelance writer & artist and I've got a BFA in graphic design. So I know what I'm taking about when I talk about stuff like composition and color balance. And yes, I can pick apart pretty much every creative thing I've ever done. But I've also done enough projects to know that going back to revise your old work in a quest for absolute perfection is a fool's errand. At a certain point you have to declare that a project is done because it's the best you could've done under the circumstances, and then take the lessons you learned and apply them to the next project.

    And another one of my points was that it wasn't the creators working on TOS-R. It was other people going back 40 years after the fact, and, in some cases, overriding what the actual creators originally did. That's very different from a creator going back and revising their own work.

    "Allow for the possibility that from time to time other people might be at least as smart as you are." - Aaron Sorkin, Sports Night.
     
  5. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That completely misses the point. The point of @Maurice's remark, I believe, is that the TOS-R VFX often don't match with everything else going on.

    To use a writing example that perhaps will make it easier for you to understand: it's like publishing an edition of Hamlet containing

    "This above all: be true to yourself."​

    It wouldn't be Shakespeare.
     
  6. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I had similar issues with the TOS-R choices in The Doomsday Machine. Simple things like:

    1. having the view screen in Aux Control come on after it's evident Kirk seems something on the screen ("what the devil's going on"), unlike the original, which showed exactly that.

    2. Having the Enterprise towing the Constellation as it's being zapped when Kirk never actually gave the order to do so. ("We'll take her in tow. I'll stay on board and get her ready."). Kirk has Decker and McCoy beam up and before Kirk can even mention it, the Enterprise is at Red Alert and attacked. The visuals after the break (in the original) show the Enterprise on its own, probably leading the PK away from the Constellation. And when the Enterprise is hit, everyone goes flying. Nobody on the Constellation does.

    I don't mind updated effects that I either like or do not like. It is when they ignore stuff like this that dives me a little batty.
     
  7. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Commodore Commodore

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    I have read (long ago) about the smoke being from one of Kelly's cigarettes. I can't remember the source so I can't verify that it was not some fan speculation. Maybe it was in one of the making of books, I'm not sure.
    I couldn't even see the smoke until recently on my big TV so I wondered what they were talking about.

    Spock often advocates the peaceful way - most specifically in the Gorn episode and the Surak episode.
    And in Galileo 7 Spock refuses to take life just to give the creatures a bloody nose, nose, in Devil in the Dark he wants to capture the creature whereas Kirk wants it destroyed and in the episode with the Gorn Spock wants to call off the chase.
     
  8. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Commodore Commodore

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    I just Googled to be sure, and it's more likely they still had the plaster molds of Mark Lenard's ears, rather than of the casting molds for the ear appliances. Sarek's ears look very different from the Romulan Commander's. They are larger, and the points are farther forward.

    That said, the largest expense may have been actually casting the actor's ears, at least time-wise. Having the ear molds from his earlier appearance would save having to bring him in to make new molds.
     
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  9. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    To reiterate, there's a vast difference between a plausible hypothesis and a theory supported by evidence.
     
  10. Ryan Thomas Riddle

    Ryan Thomas Riddle Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Talk about missing the point by 12 parsecs...
     
  11. Maurice

    Maurice Admiral Premium Member

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    He doesn't miss the point... he deliberate evades it so he can play the authority.
     
  12. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Interesting. Odd that they'd save one but not the other.
    And having the makeup artist make them.
    If you were referring to my post, I don't think I presented it as anything but pure speculation. That's why I used the word "probably."
     
  13. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    When I'm purely speculating, I use words like "perhaps." To invoke the word "probably" for something, there needs to be evidence from which to determine that it's more likely than not.

    But that's just me. Whatever floats your boat.
     
  14. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Oh good lord. :rolleyes:

    I already have a couple of editors in my life, thanks. I'm not looking to add any more, especially not on the BBS. My meaning was clear. If you didn't understand it, that's on you.
     
  15. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So, when you write "probably," you don't actually mean probably, and it doesn't mean you're basing your opinion on any source. Got it.

    For the record, when I write

    it means that I'm not trying to be someone's editor.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
  16. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This has become the most snipey thread ever.

    Can we just kinda be pals and move on? Or not be pals and move on?
     
  17. plynch

    plynch Commodore Commodore

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    2019: EVERYthing has to be an argument. Good lord.
     
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  18. T'Bonz

    T'Bonz Romulan Curmudgeon Administrator

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    Knock the personal crap off, before warnings are issued.
     
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  19. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I still find it fascinating that in Amok Time and Journey To Babel that Kirk and co. don't mention having gone to Vulcan or having met T'Pau before to Sarek or Amanda at least on screen! Episodic television where you can slot episodes wherever you like was a much better medium! The BBC always screened Amok after Babel virtually every time so as a child I wondered if Sarek would reappear at the ceremony! Nowadays every little instance is mentioned and rementioned to infinity! :vulcan:
    JB
     
  20. Maurice

    Maurice Admiral Premium Member

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    Not that it has to be justified, but I think the reason Sarek and/or Amanda were not there at Amok time is either:
    • Such wonton displays of emotion are embarrassing enough without your immediate family there, especially since humans do not seem super welcome
    • Sarek was off Diplomatting somewhere and there was not enough time for him to scoot back to Vulcan to glower and his estranged son