Journey to Babel Deforest Kelley Smoking

[Christopher]

Nitpicking specific imperfections does not translate to damning the entire practice in general. Obviously when people try something, they won't always succeed. But that doesn't mean it's wrong for anyone to try it at all.

Any human creation is imperfect. That's a given. There were plenty of imperfections in TOS, and there were plenty of imperfections in TOS-R. Sometimes TOS-R improved on the original, sometimes it didn't. That's the nature of human effort. Any creation is imperfect, and that's why creators generally aren't as opposed to revising or updating their works as fans tend to be -- because nobody sees the imperfections more clearly than the creators themselves.

 

[Maurice]

Yes, but there are several instances where the TOS-R effects crew clearly disregarded the original intent in TOS, as they altered compositions, designs, and even color schemes in their new effects shots.

Yep. You give some good examples.

Or the opening shots of "Wink of the Eye," where they new effects team decided that the people who originally made the show didn't really mean to make the background of the episode's first scene blue, and gave us a dull grey background instead, getting rid of the cool statue on the left, to boot. (Which, again, totally wrecks the composition, throwing it off balance and eliminating the middle ground between the foreground and the background that the statue provided.)

The blue certainly looks intentional and not necessarily related to the rear-projection, but even if it were an artifact of that, removing the sculpture does ruin the shot composition. And this remains my big objection to these kinds of changes: the people making them are often/typically not filmmakers and do not understand the fundamentals of cinematography. I had a lovely brief chat with John Dykstra in June where we bitched to each other about this.

Dykstra proof!

​

Or when they decided to alter the asteroid from "For The World is Hollow, and I Have Touched the Sky" from the cool, colorful, interesting-looking thing in the original to a dull, generic-looking grey rock.

This is exactly what I mean about the TOS-R shots not looking "of a piece" with the rest of the show. The show's cinematographic style often bled into the effects shots: like those colors on the asteroid and the purplish light on the Klingon ship, or the multicolored cube in "Corbomite". The TOS-R stuff mostly looks like it belongs to a different show made decades later.

Or in "Amok Time," where they decided "Fuck it, let's remove actual live footage of our three lead actors to insert in a CGI landscape that will reference the matte paintings of Vulcan in Star Trek III."

And TAS's "Yesteryear". There's also a fundamental misunderstanding of how horizon lines work. The horizon doesn't vanish just because you raise the setting up a few hundred feet.

 

[Christopher]

The TOS-R stuff mostly looks like it belongs to a different show made decades later.

Well, it was made decades later. It made no secret of that.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Nitpicking specific imperfections does not translate to damning the entire practice in general.

Good thing I never said anything like that, then:

Don't get me wrong, TOS-R also did a lot of new shots that I liked, but they clearly weren't true to the original creator's intent several times over the course of the project.

Bolded for emphasis.

Obviously when people try something, they won't always succeed. But that doesn't mean it's wrong for anyone to try it at all.

Again, you're attributing things to me that I never said. At no point did I say that TOS-R shouldn't have been done. What I was doing was protesting your assertion that the new effects shots were always respecting creator intent on TOS and that they were things the creators would've done themselves if they could have. And I think I cited enough examples to prove that wasn't always the case.

I'd appreciate it if in the future, you could respond to the arguments I actually made, instead just making up ones that are easier for you to shoot down.

Any creation is imperfect, and that's why creators generally aren't as opposed to revising or updating their works as fans tend to be -- because nobody sees the imperfections more clearly than the creators themselves.

Since I'm a creator myself, I don't really need this pointed out to me. I'm a stand-up comedian, freelance writer & artist and I've got a BFA in graphic design. So I know what I'm taking about when I talk about stuff like composition and color balance. And yes, I can pick apart pretty much every creative thing I've ever done. But I've also done enough projects to know that going back to revise your old work in a quest for absolute perfection is a fool's errand. At a certain point you have to declare that a project is done because it's the best you could've done under the circumstances, and then take the lessons you learned and apply them to the next project.

And another one of my points was that it wasn't the creators working on TOS-R. It was other people going back 40 years after the fact, and, in some cases, overriding what the actual creators originally did. That's very different from a creator going back and revising their own work.

"Allow for the possibility that from time to time other people might be at least as smart as you are." - Aaron Sorkin, Sports Night.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well, it was made decades later. It made no secret of that.

That completely misses the point. The point of @Maurice's remark, I believe, is that the TOS-R VFX often don't match with everything else going on.

To use a writing example that perhaps will make it easier for you to understand: it's like publishing an edition of Hamlet containing

"This above all: be true to yourself."​

It wouldn't be Shakespeare.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I had similar issues with the TOS-R choices in The Doomsday Machine. Simple things like:

1. having the view screen in Aux Control come on after it's evident Kirk seems something on the screen ("what the devil's going on"), unlike the original, which showed exactly that.

2. Having the Enterprise towing the Constellation as it's being zapped when Kirk never actually gave the order to do so. ("We'll take her in tow. I'll stay on board and get her ready."). Kirk has Decker and McCoy beam up and before Kirk can even mention it, the Enterprise is at Red Alert and attacked. The visuals after the break (in the original) show the Enterprise on its own, probably leading the PK away from the Constellation. And when the Enterprise is hit, everyone goes flying. Nobody on the Constellation does.

I don't mind updated effects that I either like or do not like. It is when they ignore stuff like this that dives me a little batty.

 

[Commishsleer]

I have read (long ago) about the smoke being from one of Kelly's cigarettes. I can't remember the source so I can't verify that it was not some fan speculation. Maybe it was in one of the making of books, I'm not sure.
I couldn't even see the smoke until recently on my big TV so I wondered what they were talking about.

The episode where Spock meets fake Surak

Spock often advocates the peaceful way - most specifically in the Gorn episode and the Surak episode.
And in Galileo 7 Spock refuses to take life just to give the creatures a bloody nose, nose, in Devil in the Dark he wants to capture the creature whereas Kirk wants it destroyed and in the episode with the Gorn Spock wants to call off the chase.

 

[FormerLurker]

Hell, it's probably half the reason that Mark Lenard was cast as Sarek -- Yes, he was a good actor, but the show also already had Vulcan/Romulan ear molds for him from "Balance of Terror." If they cast somebody completely new as Sarek, they'd have to spend a few days designing and preparing his Vulcan ears for the episode, and that's extra time and budget. Saving money in one area means that you get to spend it in another.

I just Googled to be sure, and it's more likely they still had the plaster molds of Mark Lenard's ears, rather than of the casting molds for the ear appliances. Sarek's ears look very different from the Romulan Commander's. They are larger, and the points are farther forward.

That said, the largest expense may have been actually casting the actor's ears, at least time-wise. Having the ear molds from his earlier appearance would save having to bring him in to make new molds.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

To reiterate, there's a vast difference between a plausible hypothesis and a theory supported by evidence.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Well, it was made decades later. It made no secret of that.

Talk about missing the point by 12 parsecs...

 

[Maurice]

That completely misses the point. The point of @Maurice's remark[...]

He doesn't miss the point... he deliberate evades it so he can play the authority.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I just Googled to be sure, and it's more likely they still had the plaster molds of Mark Lenard's ears, rather than of the casting molds for the ear appliances. Sarek's ears look very different from the Romulan Commander's. They are larger, and the points are farther forward.

Interesting. Odd that they'd save one but not the other.

That said, the largest expense may have been actually casting the actor's ears, at least time-wise. Having the ear molds from his earlier appearance would save having to bring him in to make new molds.

And having the makeup artist make them.

To reiterate, there's a vast difference between a plausible hypothesis and a theory supported by evidence.

If you were referring to my post, I don't think I presented it as anything but pure speculation. That's why I used the word "probably."

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If you were referring to my post, I don't think I presented it as anything but pure speculation. That's why I used the word "probably."

When I'm purely speculating, I use words like "perhaps." To invoke the word "probably" for something, there needs to be evidence from which to determine that it's more likely than not.

But that's just me. Whatever floats your boat.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

When I'm purely speculating, I use words like "perhaps." To invoke the word "probably" for something, there needs to be evidence from which to determine that it's more likely than not.

But that's just me. Whatever floats your boat.

Oh good lord.

I already have a couple of editors in my life, thanks. I'm not looking to add any more, especially not on the BBS. My meaning was clear. If you didn't understand it, that's on you.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Oh good lord.

I already have a couple of editors in my life, thanks. I'm not looking to add any more, especially not on the BBS. My meaning was clear. If you didn't understand it, that's on you.

So, when you write "probably," you don't actually mean probably, and it doesn't mean you're basing your opinion on any source. Got it.

If you were referring to my post, I don't think I presented it as anything but pure speculation. That's why I used the word "probably."

For the record, when I write

Whatever floats your boat.

it means that I'm not trying to be someone's editor.

 

[Ssosmcin]

This has become the most snipey thread ever.

Can we just kinda be pals and move on? Or not be pals and move on?

 

[plynch]

2019: EVERYthing has to be an argument. Good lord.

 

[T'Bonz]

Knock the personal crap off, before warnings are issued.

 

[johnnybear]

I still find it fascinating that in Amok Time and Journey To Babel that Kirk and co. don't mention having gone to Vulcan or having met T'Pau before to Sarek or Amanda at least on screen! Episodic television where you can slot episodes wherever you like was a much better medium! The BBC always screened Amok after Babel virtually every time so as a child I wondered if Sarek would reappear at the ceremony! Nowadays every little instance is mentioned and rementioned to infinity!
JB

 

[Maurice]

I still find it fascinating that in Amok Time and Journey To Babel that Kirk and co. don't mention having gone to Vulcan or having met T'Pau before to Sarek or Amanda at least on screen! Episodic television where you can slot episodes wherever you like was a much better medium! The BBC always screened Amok after Babel virtually every time so as a child I wondered if Sarek would reappear at the ceremony! Nowadays every little instance is mentioned and rementioned to infinity!
JB

Not that it has to be justified, but I think the reason Sarek and/or Amanda were not there at Amok time is either:

• Such wonton displays of emotion are embarrassing enough without your immediate family there, especially since humans do not seem super welcome
• Sarek was off Diplomatting somewhere and there was not enough time for him to scoot back to Vulcan to glower at his estranged son