Joss Whedon "quits" his new series.

[Mudd]

BTVS was just about perfect from beginning to end - well, no skiffy series has come closer. The fourth year was the weakest, and there's a lot of good stuff in it.

Whedon's a brilliant guy; I hope he does well.

 

[Anwar]

Umm. Well. I mean...

* * *

Re: Firefly. I would consider Wash to be much more of the self-insert character than Mal. If Mal is the self-insert, it's unintentional -- Mal is depicted as being quite often a verbally abusive asshole, and, well, apparently Whedon is too.

This is what I'm getting at. Xander's character might have been better remembered if they'd have him leave at the start of S4 and make occasional appearances after that. But keeping him around without a real direction for him did more damage than anything.

And Mal...the TV version of Mal is one thing, but the movie version of Mal was near-sociopathic. I doubt Whedon meant HIM to be a self-insert.

 

[Jayson1]

One thing I think overlooked when talking about Xander is these characters were in high school. I believe Whedon has talked about how Xander was sort of him in high school which makes sense. People are not mature in high school or really even into their early 20's. Which was basically part of his appeal IMO. He was the most realistic character on the show. He was basically the everyman thus one of the big reasons why he never got super powers and everyone else did. Even Giles who didn't get powers we found out has this badass background as the Ripper. Xander though is just some kid who grew up in a dysfunctional family and saw all his friends become more and more powerful while he still remained average.

Not only that but you can sort of see this concept being explored with the Trio when contrasting them and Xander. Xander use to be more like the Trio when in high school but unlike them he did mature as he got older. They were still "boys pretending to be men" I think was what they doctor said in that episode were Buffy was in a mental hospital. Xander's big change I think is the one were he is split in two and from then forward you start to see a shift in how the character is written. He is no longer high school Xander or hopeless loser who can't hold a job and living in parents basement Xander. Though those fears of regressing is what dooms his marriage when that demon on his wedding day shows him a future where he has basically become like his dad. Like said though this is kind of the point in which they run out of story. They in retrospect could have killed him early next season and let him be the kind of defining face of the First Evil.


Jason

 

[Mudd]

Most of the characters on BTVS were messes to some degree. The premise that there aren't really good and bad people was one of the delightful things about the show.

 

[Jayson1]

I agree. It's also a hallmark of all Joss Whedon shows. He is able to explore heavy and dark themes but in ways that don't feel preachy because he knows how to go from super serious to funny on a dime. His characters are very self aware of the weirdness of the genre they are operating within as opposed to being super earnest.


Jason

 

[The Realist]

Yeah, the one-two punch of creative backlash and cultural cancellation directed toward Whedon is unfortunate. BtVS is a landmark classic and a defining touchstone of its genre, and no amount of Monday-morning quarterbacking is going to change that. Firefly was pretty damned awesome as well.

 

[CorporalClegg]

BtVS is a landmark classic and a defining touchstone of its genre,.

I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise.

 

[Sci]

This is what I'm getting at. Xander's character might have been better remembered if they'd have him leave at the start of S4 and make occasional appearances after that.

I think a fair amount of the things that are problematic about Xander creatively were problematic throughout every season, and that his departure in S4 would not make that problem go away.

BtVS is a landmark classic and a defining touchstone of its genre,.

I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise.

Indeed! I adore Buffy and always will. My post history on TrekBBS contains hundreds of posts praising and defending Buffy and Whedon's other shows.

But something can be a classic and a defining touchstone of its genre, while also having elements that we later recognize as problematic. To make a comparison: No rational person will pretend Casablanca isn't one of the greatest films of all time, a touching love story, a moving parable about the importance of sacrifice for the greater good, and a seminal work of anti-fascism -- but no rational person can argue that Casablanca as a narrative is not racist in its depiction of Sam and of white people casually ruling an African city, either.

All these things can be true.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Yup. It's my favorite show with a bullet. I've seen every episode a few dozen times and know a lot of them by heart. I still watch regularly. (Watched "Pangs" over the weekend and it still makes me laugh out loud.) But it is by no means perfect.

One can recognize the finale still holds up as one of the most pro-feminist moments in TV history, with Buffy and Will symbolically passing the torch scythe through the TV set and passing their power to all the girls and young women watching at home. But it was also written and directed by a man -- one who's done some pretty unkosher things. And it's important to acknowledge that.

 

[Anwar]

I think a fair amount of the things that are problematic about Xander creatively were problematic throughout every season, and that his departure in S4 would not make that problem go away.

It would have lessened it, because it REALLY got worse S4 onwards.

Then again a lot of things started to go off the rails by S4. Spike started his downfall when the Military group neutered him via the Chip and this led to him joining the group and that disgusting romance with Buffy because the writers wanted a replacement for Angel.

And Xander ends up in a relationship with Anya, with no one pointing out the hypocrisy of how Angel and Spike should be held accountable for their actions but Anya having caused FAR more death and misery was utterly ignored because the writers didn't care about her background and just wanted a replacement for Cordelia.

 

[Jayson1]

I hardly think Angel and Spike were held accountable for their actions. Even keeping Spike alive when he gets the chip in reality makes no sense. He is a demon without a soul who would kill people the first chance he could get if the chip wasn't holding him back. Angel at least had a soul so it is kind to hold him responsible for lots of his actions. Not all though. Angel did some fairly nasty things with a soul as well.


Jason

 

[LaxScrutiny]

You have no right to say what amounts of stress can make or break a person's mental health. We all know people who have fallen harder from even less, and if you personally don't, then lucky you.

If he can't handle what I've been through, and what millions have been through, and we've all struggled through and carried on, then he doesn't get my respect. Divorce and COVID are reasons, not excuses. There's a difference between the two.

 

[Mudd]

then he doesn't get my respect.

This matters why, and to whom?

 

[LaxScrutiny]

This matters why, and to whom?

Matters to me, that's why I voiced it. Obviously not to you.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

If he can't handle what I've been through, and what millions have been through, and we've all struggled through and carried on, then he doesn't get my respect. Divorce and COVID are reasons, not excuses. There's a difference between the two.

Well. So long as you're the authority on mental illness, thank you for your contribution and compassion. I'll make sure to tell the people I love triggered by much less that they have no excuses for their state of being.

 

[Anwar]

I hardly think Angel and Spike were held accountable for their actions. Even keeping Spike alive when he gets the chip in reality makes no sense. He is a demon without a soul who would kill people the first chance he could get if the chip wasn't holding him back. Angel at least had a soul so it is kind to hold him responsible for lots of his actions. Not all though. Angel did some fairly nasty things with a soul as well.


Jason

Yeah, but at least it was brought UP that they were bastards who should be seen as Monsters (Angel, less so). Anya escaped all responsibility, because no one really cared about her past as a Demon. They just wanted to continue Cordelia's story and transferred her character to Anya.