joined entities in political office (as in "Unjoined")

[datalogan]

I’ve been thinking and wondering about joined lifeforms. Or at least ones that work so strongly together that they can effectively be seen as one person.

The Friagloim, like Arislelemakinstess in Rising Son
Joined Trill, as seen in DS9 and numerous novels
Binar pairs, like in TNG “11001001”
Maybe the nanites from TNG “Evolution”
Can anybody think of any others?

In particular I was thinking about “group” beings like this in relations to government and political office.
It seems to me that some species groups exist that work so closely together to effectively be treated as a single person.
Meaning, that in the Federation (or other similar organizations containing such beings) there must be allowances [rights] for such joined group beings to run for and be elected to political office. The group being would be treated as a single person who would share the political power, etc.

What really brought this on was a rethinking of the situation towards the end of Worlds of DS9: Trill: Unjoined, when the President of the planet Trill, Lirisse Maz, became unjoined. She ceased to be Lirisse Maz, the joined Trill who had been elected, and became 2 different beings: the symbiont Maz and the host Lirisse Durghan. The symbiont Maz could not effectively be President, and didn’t want to anyway because it was going back into the symbiont pools. Lirisse Durghan, apparently, did still want to serve as President.

I would think that there is no legal right for Lirisse Durghan to continue to serve in an office that she wasn’t elected to. The host Lirisse Durghan was not the entity elected to office. That joined being of Lirisse Maz ceased to exist once Maz became unjoined with the host. I would argue that both Maz and Lirisse Durghan would need to step down from office. And then the position should fall to the next person legally in line for the office.

While these group beings can run for office and serve in office, I think they can’t fundamentally change their very state/existence and still be allowed to stay in office. They were voted into office as a joined group entity, in a situation where none of the voters ever expected them to split. [The voters didn’t elect the host Lirisse Durghan; they elected the joined being Lirisse Maz.] If they were to split up, then none of the individual components any longer constitute the entirely of the being that was voted into office. Therefore, that elected official is “dead” or “missing” or at least “incapacitated beyond the ability to do the job”. Therefore, the office should fall to whoever is next in line according to previously established succession laws.

Note, there is no reason to believe the Trill government has a standing succession law that states a host may automatically take over for the joined entity it used to be before the symbiont left. Because, prior to that book, medical science was such that no host could ever survive for long after the symbiont left.

BTW, I was very fascinated by the events that took place on Trill during “Unjoined”. I had always felt that the unjoined Trill of the society were an oppressed majority and that change needed to come to Trill. It’s too bad that the story of Trill society has never been followed up on in later books, etc. I would like to know what happen to them. And I would like to think the society is more democratic and egalitarian now.

 

[David Mack]

On the one hand, I think this crosses the line from "notion" to "story idea."

On the other, this is really cool and would make for a terrific episode of a fan-film series. Might be an interesting angle from which to comment on current politics and the drive to de-legitimize elected officials after the fact.

 

[Sci]

On the one hand, I think this crosses the line from "notion" to "story idea."

On the other, this is really cool and would make for a terrific episode of a fan-film series. Might be an interesting angle from which to comment on current politics and the drive to de-legitimize elected officials after the fact.

I personally don't read it as a story idea per se, since it is in essence a comment about the plausible potential consequences to a story that was published a decade ago at this point.

But, I do think that the critique the OP brings up does quite naturally lend itself to the kinds of stories you brought up. Particularly since, so far as I know, nobody has established what the political situation is on Trill post-Worlds of Deep Space Nine.

(Side-note: Has the formal name of the Trill state ever been established? Are they like most countries today, where it's "the (Something) of "(Place name)," or is it just "Trill" the way it's just "Canada" or just "New Zealand?")

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Meaning, that in the Federation (or other similar organizations containing such beings) there must be allowances [rights] for such joined group beings to run for and be elected to political office. The group being would be treated as a single person who would share the political power, etc.

I do wonder where Federation law stands on the definition of an individual. The UFP may be rather hands-off in terms of the legal particulars and favoured systems of its member states, within reason, but the UFP government itself is obviously going to need a stricter, tighter standard, one that applies universally. Or so I'd imagine.

If a Bynar pair announced their decision to run (unlikely, but of course possible), would it be acceptable for them to stand as a single candidate, and if so would it be "Shir President" or "Shir Presidents"? Would the latter be avoided to maintain the sense that there's only a single head of state, and would that provoke accusations of semantic manoeuvring in an effort to gloss over the potential breach of the rules? Would it be argued that since linked pairs is the closest mainstream Bynar equivalent to "individual", it isn't a power-share but simply the same thing as a single Human or Vulcan running for office?

When Trill symbiosis became common knowledge at last, I do wonder if there was a backlash of sorts in some parts of the Federation. Officials running under false pretences, concealing the truth of their identities? We know from "Dax" that as of 2369 there still wasn't any consensus, apparently, for exactly how Trill Joining worked from the legal perspective. Many headaches arose, I'm sure. Nothing major, but enough in the way of minor conflict and intra-Federation discord.

What really brought this on was a rethinking of the situation towards the end of Worlds of DS9: Trill: Unjoined, when the President of the planet Trill, Lirisse Maz, became unjoined. She ceased to be Lirisse Maz, the joined Trill who had been elected, and became 2 different beings: the symbiont Maz and the host Lirisse Durghan. The symbiont Maz could not effectively be President, and didn’t want to anyway because it was going back into the symbiont pools. Lirisse Durghan, apparently, did still want to serve as President.

I would think that there is no legal right for Lirisse Durghan to continue to serve in an office that she wasn’t elected to. The host Lirisse Durghan was not the entity elected to office. That joined being of Lirisse Maz ceased to exist once Maz became unjoined with the host. I would argue that both Maz and Lirisse Durghan would need to step down from office. And then the position should fall to the next person legally in line for the office.

I do wonder about that. Is Durghan the legal successor to Maz, if clearly not the same person? Of course, as you note further down, since the possibility of a host continuing to live after segregation from the symbiont was considered an impossibility, Trill wouldn't, perhaps, have any ruling in place. Then again, you'd think they would anticipate the eventual possibility as medical science advanced.

In some Federation cultures (Kerovi, prior to its secession, for one) a spouse can step in to finish their partner's term, we know that much. (This itself suggests that a unity of sorts is perceived, as though a spouse is a legal or social extension of the elected official, raising further difficult questions. Indeed, I personally think a strong argument can potentially be made in real life for it to be a legal requirement that anyone running for higher office not be married, because if they are then you have an unelected individual with incredible amounts of power, at least potentially, over the political system). Perhaps Trill considers (or now considers) a former host akin to a spouse - as someone intimate with the former, "deceased" leader and qualified to step in for them?

Lirisse Maz no longer exists - she is, for all intents and purposes, dead. Or maybe it's more accurate to suggest that she suffered a grievous brain injury and lost many of her faculties - though that interpretation is complicated by the fact that her remaining faculties, at least in the host half, are more than enough to perform the duties of her office?

But yes, I imagine Trill and, to a lesser extent, the UFP, settled into a long and hard debate over what went down that day in Leran Manev.

BTW, I was very fascinated by the events that took place on Trill during “Unjoined”. I had always felt that the unjoined Trill of the society were an oppressed majority and that change needed to come to Trill. It’s too bad that the story of Trill society has never been followed up on in later books, etc. I would like to know what happen to them. And I would like to think the society is more democratic and egalitarian now.

"Oppressed" strikes me as too strong a word. The Trill had a clear if unofficial caste system in place, with a certain segment of the populace considered the best and brightest (mostly because they were) and afforded preferential treatment. These people had greater opportunities for advancement, but then they were the most intelligent and promising. Their safety was prioritized, because they carried the rare and precious symbiont race within them. They were granted a rare privilege... that they worked hard for throughout their youths, in trying to prove themselves. It was an unequal system, and it doesn't surprise me that there came a point when the pressure was on and the populace suddenly decided they weren't happy with it. The lies about the percentage of Trill Humanoids suitable for Joining, the cover-up of Kurl that nearly sparked conflict with Bajor and threatened Trill's UFP membership... these contributed to the eventual upheaval. The Trill demanded change, and it's difficult, looking in at the system they lived within, to argue that they shouldn't have it. They could no longer continue in the circumstances they had created for themselves and (up until then) mostly accepted. But that doesn't make Trill a dysfunctional society prior to the events of 2376, it just means that they reached a point where peoples' expectations had changed, their tolerances had changed, because their understanding of where they stood had changed - in part, because new truths had come to light, and new perspectives were encouraged.

An implicit preference for the advancement, safety and treatment of certain sectors of the populace over others, particularly when people within a society are generally in agreement that such people deserve or need it, doesn't, I'd argue, equate to oppression for those less fortunate. There are many such unofficial inequities and biases in many societies today, including all of ours, and to suggest that people are "oppressed" because of it is not a line of thought I like to encourage, personally. You can very much support and take up the demand for change and reconsideration without necessarily believing people to be, in most cases anyway, full-on oppressed. When people start "waking up" (to put it more provocatively) or simply experience a shift in their perspective, assumptions and understanding of their situation (to put it more mildly), there can be much unrest, much dissatisfaction, much anger. Such was the case with Trill.

I agree entirely that visiting Trill and getting a sense of how their new Unjoined society is working would be great; then again, I want a deeper, closer look at many Federation worlds. Let's get exploring closer to home!

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Another quick point: I suppose that in times of crisis, anything that settles the populace down and restores stability quickly is likely to be granted a lot of leeway, even if it technically bends the rules. When Chancellor Gorkon was assassinated, the Klingons seem not to have selected an arbiter of succession and gone through the usual process of choosing the next Council leader, they instead advanced Gorkon's eldest surviving child and disciple into the role (despite said child being female), presumably because they couldn't afford to waste time, they needed leadership now, and this was their best option to ensure a smooth transition. Okay, Klingons are not a Federation member state or a republic, unlike Trill, but in a sense the same thing applies. Azetbur managed to take charge of the role in a way that ensured she stayed in the chair, in spite of her sex and other deviations from the accepted norm. On Trill, maybe everyone decided they could debate Durghan's legitimacy afterward and then have her step down if needed to be replaced by an elected (unjoined, of course...) successor. For now, everyone's stopped rioting and are listening to the government again, so they can worry about the tricky legal realities later.

Such acceptance of rule-bending in crisis situations is very much open to abuse, of course, but it's how things work, I imagine.

 

[Markonian]

The only other combo-species I can think of at the top of the hat are the Indign.

Anyway, interesting food for thought here.

 

[datalogan]

Thought the Indign were a collective of other races, not even a race in-and-of themselves, much less a collecive entity. Or was one of the races a race of collective entities?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As we learned in DS9's "Invasive Procedures", Trill law considers a joined person a legally different entity from a subsequent host of the same symbiont (i.e. Jadzia Dax could not be held liable for anything Curzon Dax did) so I can only assume this also applies to a non-joined vs. joined person - meaning, Lirisse Durghan is, legally, a different Trill than Lirisse Maz, and thus should not have been entitled to the presidency.

 

[Markonian]

Thought the Indign were a collective of other races, not even a race in-and-of themselves, much less a collecive entity. Or was one of the races a race of collective entities?

They are indeed a collection of species but staying together in continuous symbiosis. A member of each species binding together.

 

[datalogan]

Probably my use of the word "oppressed" is too strong a word. And, ultimately, I wouldn't even see a problem with joined Trill dominating the upper echelons of government--they do tend to be more capable after all--much like our government is dominated by old people. The important thing is that joined status not be Required to serve. The office must be fairly/democratically open to all. Occasionally you may get a "young" / unjoined person who just happens to be more capable than average for his age group and able to win the position in fair democratic election.

We do have indications that Trill society is still working on its equality. Like Lela Dax around 2070 being the first-ever woman to serve on the Trill congress (or whatever it was called). A body composed only of joined Trill. And women not previously allowed prior to 2070s--amazing for a race that's been space-fairing for, what, millennia?

Ultimately, I'm fine with any "arranged succession". Like spouses taking over, or the host keeping the position even when the symbiont leaves, etc. As Long As the arranged succession is know ahead-of-time by the voters when they elected the people into office. That's the base requirement to be fair and democratic.

I'd even be OK with groups serving in political office and sharing power, etc. Again, as long as it was known to the voters ahead of time.

Though I do admit that sometimes practical decisions in uncertain times of revolution are not (and could not have been) all thought out ahead of time. And that doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. After all, the fact that there's a rebellion happening probably speaks to the inadequacy of existing laws.

I'm far less concerned about term we actually use to address "co-presidents". That's just semantics.
Much like deciding how to handle the "duties" of First Lady if a married couple were elected President in U.S.

This does bring up the question of why the symbiont's life is held priority over the host? Or why any life should be held over another. You know, in those situations where you have to choose. Let's assume you are not deciding based on personal reasons, like "I like this one more than that one" or for functional reasons like "we really need this one to live because they are the only one who can complete the mission" or "the host can't live w/o the symbiont anyway, so the symbiont wins by default". Do you choose the one who has more life to live (the younger; which the symbiont may be in relative terms since it has a longer lifespan), or the one who has lived the most and can pass on that information to others (the older; or the symbiont because of its unique ability to carry on memories not only from the current host, but from previous lives), or the one who is more unique to the universe (since there are a lot less symbionts than hosts).

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Really great topic for discussion, by the way. Thanks datalogan.

The office must be fairly/democratically open to all.

All? Every society has a list of exceptions to those who can run for office or be legally considered for it. Every society reveals its assumptions, suppositions and biases through those rules and laws, its particular stance on the criteria needed to make one eligible to run, or to lead.

Okay, I'm being deliberately niggly here (I imagine you and I are more or less in the same boat when it comes to our position on the subject), and I know what you meant here in the context of Trill, but I hope you'll excuse me using this as an excuse to poke around in the issue at hand a bit more.

Like Lela Dax around 2070 being the first-ever woman to serve on the Trill congress (or whatever it was called). A body composed only of joined Trill. And women not previously allowed prior to 2070s--amazing for a race that's been space-fairing for, what, millennia?

I liked that little canonical snippet, that politics was an exclusively male role when Dax was first hosted. It gives the Trill a sense of history, shows that their society has changed over the centuries, that they're not static (if they were, it would undermine the point of the Joining as I see it, from a story-telling perspective). The distinct gendered roles were explained in The Lives of Dax (the Lela story is in fact my favourite among them) as a consequence of Trill society's focus on Joining as the most essential aspect of civilization, and the multi-life experience being held in higher esteem than the single life. Apparently, the sexes having truly distinct life experiences was considered a means of ensuring variety over a symbiont's many hosted lives, to make a "well-rounded" Joined individual. Of course, over time it all just blurred together, apparently, and the Trill decided that the practice wasn't necessary to ensure diverse and balanced experiences, so they eased up on that. Basically, with the Trill we seem to have a situation where the original sexual divisions of labour and distinct gender roles were maintained for longer than would otherwise be the case (as you point out, advanced technology/high standards of living rendering such things increasingly dead weight) due to a cultural bias unique to this society.

(The Lela story in the Lives of Dax is my favourite, by the way, because it offers an intelligent take on social conservatism that has rarely been equalled in Trek. I appreciated the way in which Lela Dax is shown to have multiple points working against her - her double youth, her lack of former hosts that makes her little more than an Unjoined, her sex, to say nothing of her actual opinions - without any of these things being dwelt upon unduly or made the focus of the story -but still being acknowledged where appropriate).

After all, the fact that there's a rebellion happening probably speaks to the inadequacy of existing laws.

Well, those not rebelling never see it that way. They're often angry and upset that their neighbours are causing trouble, and resent being told that they're supposedly supporting oppressive standards, as though they're "bad people". Or they insist that people should work within the system to change, even if those people think the system itself is irredeemable. The boundaries between "injustice we cannot tolerate", "heated overreaction to genuine mistreatments" and "selfish demands without legitimate cause" are not easily determined.

This does bring up the question of why the symbiont's life is held priority over the host? Or why any life should be held over another. You know, in those situations where you have to choose. Let's assume you are not deciding based on personal reasons, like "I like this one more than that one" or for functional reasons like "we really need this one to live because they are the only one who can complete the mission" or "the host can't live w/o the symbiont anyway, so the symbiont wins by default". Do you choose the one who has more life to live (the younger; which the symbiont may be in relative terms since it has a longer lifespan), or the one who has lived the most and can pass on that information to others (the older; or the symbiont because of its unique ability to carry on memories not only from the current host, but from previous lives), or the one who is more unique to the universe (since there are a lot less symbionts than hosts).

Well, the Trill have previously placed the value of the symbionts higher than that of anyone else, unofficially if not in any actual codified way. They did that for a variety of interlinked reasons - because they're not very populous, because they're the repository of generations of knowledge, heritage and intellect, and because Joining with a symbiont is (or was) considered the highest calling for a Trill Humanoid. The symbionts are objectified by Trill society as precious cultural artefacts, more or less, and held in highest esteem simply for what they naturally are. In the past, this favouring of the symbiont was just an automatic assumption, it seems, among the vast majority of Trill - you save a symbiont over a Humanoid, a Joined being over an Unjoined. You just do.

In Worlds of DS9: Unjoined, where there's a situation wherein the hospitals are overwhelmed with Joined patients, we see Unjoined being turned away or neglected, and former hosts left without care while doctors scramble to prepare symbionts for return to the pools, all of which offends Dr. Bashir. In such a situation, the bias becomes harder to swallow, and it makes sense to me that people began to question it, and that outsiders not raised within Trill value systems would quickly sympathise with the "Unjoined as an oppressed majority" crowd. It's still a highly complex situation, of course - some Unjoined, we saw, were protesting that the symbionts were the real power on Trill, a manipulative race of overlords exploiting the Humanoids (that is, all or most of the responsibility was being placed on the symbionts), while others seemed to insist that the symbionts are innocent and that the inequities, etc., are all due to the Humanoids alone, that the symbionts don't bear any responsibility for being part of a system where their lives are held in highest esteem (that is, the opposite position, continuing the objectification of the symbionts - they're just carried along in the currents of the Humanoids' decisions, like leaves in the wind). Symbionts run the world or symbionts have no say in how the world is run at all - take your pick.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

At this point, I think I have to offer praise to the Martin-Mangles team for writing such a fascinatingly provocative story.

EDIT: If anything, I might suggest that if there's a "moral to the story" in Unjoined, it's that a lack of honesty is a very bad thing, because when you have too many twists and folds and cover-ups and lies, it makes everything all the worse when it all comes out. You'll find you don't know who or where you are and the transition to a new stability is going to be rough, to say nothing of complicating the needed response to the fallout of any one of those things you lied about or twisted, presumably because they were problematic in the first place.

EDIT'S SECOND HOST, TOBIN EDIT: Funnily enough, the novel that's given us the most information on fallout from Unjoined is Orion's Hounds. There's a subplot there - how Torvig and Keru come to know each other - which references the events on Trill; the Choblik interpreted the attempted xenocide of the symbionts by Humanoid revolutionaries as being potentially representative of attitudes within the wider UFP to anything that threatened bodily and mental integrity - and that their Benevolent Borgism might make them a target of similar attacks.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

(Side-note: Has the formal name of the Trill state ever been established? Are they like most countries today, where it's "the (Something) of "(Place name)," or is it just "Trill" the way it's just "Canada" or just "New Zealand?")

I don't think it has. But I'd guess "Republic of Trill"? Boring, but probably the most likely.

Officially, Republic of Trillius, but usually just 'Trill'?