Jodie Whittaker is the 13th Doctor

[MadeIndescribable]

Now, for guys like me, role models (and yes, we still need them) are a guide to being a better person... and we have one less.

PS, sorry to come back to this, but I have to admit it's kinda bugging me. As much as I think it's great that you still want to be a better person (as everyone always should), the previous adventures are still there for you to relive, it's not as though the morals of the first 12 Doctors have disappeared.

And speaking personally, one of my role models is Kadena Cox, someone who suffered a stroke and has MS but still went on to win gold medals in athletics AND cycling at Rio last year at the age of 25, and following her on twitter she has an amazing outlook on life in general. But she's also a black woman with a disability (I'm a white able bodied man), but I don't see why that should stop me admiring her....

 

[Steve Roby]

Keep in mind a lot of fans are OLD like me. They aren't sexist (though they do use sexist terms), they are conservative. They don't like change. Or more accurately, in a life of constant change, they like some certainties. And, in a way, a role model has been removed, especially in Capaldi. Despite terrible stories, he was their guy. Now he's gone, and we/they have to adapt yet again to change, big change.

How old is old? I'm 54. If you like certainties, and hate change, Doctor Who really isn't what you're looking for. If you're ignoring all the show's history before 2005, you're cheating. I guarantee Chibnall's 13th Doctor era will have a lot more in common with the 12th or 11th than either of them do with the eras of Hartnell, Pertwee, or McCoy.

Now, for guys like me, role models (and yes, we still need them) are a guide to being a better person... and we have one less. Gender shouldn't matter but it does. Who's my role model now? Frank Underwood? People become fans because they get something from the characters.

Like I said, I'm 54. I haven't looked for a role model for a long damn time. Even when I was in my teens and twenties, I read a lot of Robert E. Howard's Conan and a lot of Michael Moorcock's Elric, and neither Conan nor Elric was ever any kind of role model. Neither were the protagonists in a lot of Lovecraft's stories. Neither were the hapless losers who found themselves in a film noir or a noir novel by David Goodis or Cornell Woolrich.

And now old white guys are expected, yet again, to roll over, at the risk of being called sexist.

You mean like the way old women have put up with the white guys all their lives?

Easiest way to avoid being called sexist is not being sexist. The world moves on. You can't tell the world to put away the smartphones and bring back rotary dial wall-mounted phones, and you can't keep having men at the centre of all the TV shows.

I've always seen myself as a progressive, but I'm old now. This one is a little harder. Frankly it feels like it's something being taken from me.

It is. We're confiscating all the tapes, DVDs, blu-rays, comics, novels, toys, and games that depict male Doctors. All gone as of next year.

Actually, no. No one's taking any of that away, any more than bringing the show back in 2005 wiped out the 1963-1989 stuff. I still have some original series stories (and a lot of classic Doctor audios, books, and comics) yet to experience. Nothing is gone. Except your sense that in some way you have ownership over Doctor Who, and really, you never had that.

Just remember, some guys find it hard to change. Why shouldn't they? To just dismiss them as sexist is cruel and as sexist as you claim.

A man my age is old enough to have been a child, a teenager, an adult, a parent (well, uncle in my case), a husband, a grandparent. My best friend, who's also 54, just retired from the military. That is a lot of change.

The way we're communicating right now didn't exist for a fair chunk of our lives. I grew in places where there were a couple of TV channels, few restaurants, and a whole lot of white people; now I live in a city with tens of thousands of people who've come here from around the world, food in restaurants and grocery stores that I never knew existed until I was an adult, and an amazing array of entertainment options.

In my career as a librarian, I started working in a place that had no computers and now I rarely use books in my work. It's been 90% working with computers for years now, and that's gone from DOS 3.0 to current versions of Windows, with journeys through Novell Netware, UNIX, Mac OSes, iOS, and Android.

Over time, I've become an atheist, a vegetarian, a homeowner. My relationship with my parents has changed. I've worked in a few different places. I've worked with or hung out with people who are mentally ill, alcoholics, people from different class backgrounds, gay people, even conservatives. I've seen other people go through a lot of changes. That's what life IS.

TL;DR: it's not about sexism, it' just being conservative.

As Spock or Sherlock Holmes or somebody said, "A difference that makes no difference is no difference."

 

[Snaploud]

Question: is the 13th Doctor officially (per the new show-runner/BBC) transgender? Or are they drawing some distinction between surgery and regeneration?

 

[Turtletrekker]

Bwuh?

 

[Jayson1]

What I find interesting is what will happen when the Doctor character someday becomes a white guy again. Will this be seen as them trying to turn back the clock or will it be seen as just another creative choice in a character that is built with the ability to be flexible when it comes to gender,race and age?

I also wonder if these issue's are only linked to genre shows and movies. Nobody watches "Law and Order" and see the characters as role models. The need for role models seem to only come from genre based characters. Why do you think people feel the need to not just like a character but see themselves in him or her? I ask because for me when it comes to characters the first thing I always want to know is how interesting they are more than what it is about them I can admire as if they were real people. I loved the Tony Soprano character but he is not someone I would want to be like in a million years.

For me when it comes to role models and hero worship I find that it has always been more for people behind the scenes. Everyone from Kevin Smith to Quentin Taranintino to Joss Whedon. Once in awhile a actor like Bruce Campbell will join the list and certain comedians as well.

Jason

 

[Snaploud]

Bwuh?

Did I just blow your mind?

Seriously, she was born a man and will presumably identify as female...not that Time Lords would care about such things.

 

[StCoop]

Question: is the 13th Doctor officially (per the new show-runner/BBC) transgender? Or are they drawing some distinction between surgery and regeneration?

That's not what the word means. If the 13th Doctor was physically a woman but knew she should be a man and undertook the process to correct that then they would be transgender. The Doctor, as he said in 'World Enough And Time' doesn't make any distinction.

 

[Snaploud]

That's not what the word means. If the 13th Doctor was physically a woman but knew she should be a man and undertook the process to correct that then they would be transgender. The Doctor, as he said in 'World Enough And Time' doesn't make any distinction.

Searching google brings this definition at the top of the page: "denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex."

That would seem to fit, but other interpretations are certainly valid.

 

[O_Kav]

I give you a hypothetical. In a brain-snap of epic proportions, DC decides Wonder Woman should become Wonder Man, Dion of Themiscyra. Shield, bracelets, lasso, but a costume closer to Cap's. They come up with all 'valid' reasons for it (see: Thor). Women across America would gather at DC's headquarters and literally raze it. Of course they would. It is a change they would not embrace.

I would agree with this comparison if Men and Women shared the same types of privileges in our modern day Societies. Women are not only underprivileged materially but culturally too.

Like you said, role models are quite important. Even if fictional. They have a more serious importance if they are symbols to demographics that are left aside by our institutions.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

It's kind of funny that people say Doctor Who is all about change when there's been a succession of British white guys for 50+ years. I do think it's good for boys and men to have a role model in a character who gets by on his wits and smarts and not his fists but a character that shirks what society expects of them would probably make a good role model for girls as well. Though that role model has a pretty dubious streak of taking care of himself and those around him sometimes.

 

[Marc]

They take a risk with everything. People hated Smith, vowed not to watch Capaldi, Catherine Tate was going to ruin the show as was Matt Lucas, RTD had a gay agenda that was putting people off, Steven Moffat is sexism personified and I won't watch any more. No matter what they do vocal minorites will hate it and say it's the downfall of the show. Here we are 13 years later.

And before the show even returned we had the hows of dismay when it was announced that Billie Piper was going to play the companion.

 

[StCoop]

And before the show even returned we had the hows of dismay when it was announced that Billie Piper was going to play the companion.

I can remember people on GB (or was it still OG back then?) insisting they wouldn't watch the series because Eccleston was wearing a leather jacket.

And even further back, 'The Deadly Assassin' was denounced at the time of broadcast as having killed the series because of it's portrayal of Time Lord society.

There is and has always been a segment of fandom who can't cope with any changes to what they have decided the "correct" form of the series is, which by a massive coincidence always matches up with whatever it was like when they started watching.

 

[Guy Gardener]

So if the TARDIS gets another loaner body, to muck about in the corporeal world with... And she really doesn't want to not diddle the doctor, not that she had a choice last time, is she going to pick a boy or a girl to ride around inside with, to be intimate with her husband with, which is now maybe her wife, or possibly his wife?

 

[Awesome Possum]

Question: is the 13th Doctor officially (per the new show-runner/BBC) transgender? Or are they drawing some distinction between surgery and regeneration?

I would assume that when the Doctor is male he'll identify as male and when she's female she'll identify as female, much like the Master/Missy seems to. Based on dialogue, Time Lords have a very different view on gender than humans, we can't really apply human labels like trans or cis to them. Maybe genderfluid could work, they just take it to another level. To them gender is like shoes, it's just something temporary that you can swap at anytime, it doesn't really define you.

Gender swaps do not equal trans. Trans people were always the gender they identify as, it's just that their body didn't match. They're born trans, it's not some label you gain with medical treatment. For example, a trans woman was born female despite her anatomy. If she wasn't she wouldn't feel a conflict between mind and body. She's female even if she never has any medical treatment. If we find out the Doctor always felt she was a woman, then she would be trans. But odds are, he was a man, now she's a woman. It's no different to the Doctor than his or her face and accent changing.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

This.

Bigotry is ironically pretty cosmopolitan in that regard, we are all capable of prejudice.

So, someone who has extremely poor grammar and an inability to form paragraphs believes that the Doctor is a surrogate father figure to her and has thus altered the terms of that relationship and abandoned her by effectively having a sex change?

And we are supposed to take this drivel seriously?

Most likely, she was typing from a smartphone because she may have been busy doing something, and this was all the time she had to compose it.

Yeah, I read the inane, word-salad response you linked to, and the entirety of my argument stands.

To each their own; I was just showing you another perspective of this, is all.

 

[Yminale]

This.
Now, for guys like me, role models (and yes, we still need them) are a guide to being a better person... and we have one less.

This makes no sense. My Mother was the best role model I had. What does gender have to do with morality or good behavior or positive motivations.

I give you a hypothetical. In a brain-snap of epic proportions, DC decides Wonder Woman should become Wonder Man, Dion of Themiscyra. Shield, bracelets, lasso, but a costume closer to Cap's. They come up with all 'valid' reasons for it (see: Thor). Women across America would gather at DC's headquarters and literally raze it. Of course they would. It is a change they would not embrace.

If women and men had EQUAL representations I don't think this would be much of an issue.

And now old white guys are expected, yet again, to roll over, at the risk of being called sexist.

Well it's all about how you present yourself. It's ok to say you don't like the change or are uncomfortable with it. It's another to say it's wrong or damaging.

 

[Yminale]

What I find interesting is what will happen when the Doctor character someday becomes a white guy again. Will this be seen as them trying to turn back the clock or will it be seen as just another creative choice in a character that is built with the ability to be flexible when it comes to gender,race and age?

Just look at what happened to Peter Calpaldi.

I also wonder if these issue's are only linked to genre shows and movies. Nobody watches "Law and Order" and see the characters as role models.

Speak for yourself. I was a big fan of all the ADA's since the beginning.

The need for role models seem to only come from genre based characters. Why do you think people feel the need to not just like a character but see themselves in him or her?

I think you are overthinking the issues. The idea that people see fictional characters as role models is mostly pop culture psychology. People emulate those around them, especially their parents. Doctor who as a women, isn't going to turn young boys into violent psychopath.

 

[Yminale]

New question. Should the BBC have announced their attention earlier? Yes the BBC received alot of publicity but it was the wrong kind and I think the sudden announcement puts more pressure on Whittaker that she really doesn't need right now.

 

[Timewalker]

Well, I wouldn't find it blasphemous (I'm sure there are people who would, though), but I must admit a non-British Doctor would probably be a bridge too far for me. The show's Britishness is a large part of its charm, IMO. It wouldn't be the same show without it.

Agreed.

yeah I never said he didn't make use of then when the need arose, just that he doesn't like them or carry them. Hell the cover for the novelisation of Earthshock showed the Doctor kneeling in a firing position with gun in hand.

Considering that the freighter had just crashed into Earth, killing the dinosaurs and Adric, the Doctor was rather pissed off by then and was prepared to kill the Cyberman that had gotten inside the TARDIS. So as Surak of Vulcan would say, "The cause was more than sufficient."

There has never been a bad actor cast as the Doctor. I see no reason to believe that'll ever change.

Matt Smith was horrible.

In 30 years time we will look back and wonder what all the fuss was about, as the BBC confirm season 15 of Dr Who.

Season 15 has come and gone. It happened in 1978.

What a glorious piece of trolling. Down to the authentic terrible grammar and non-sequiturs:

https://www.change.org/p/the-people-with-common-sense-change-the-doctor-in-doctor-who-back-to-a-male

Oh, wait, it's for real!!!

A lot of the petition sites are infested with frivolous crap like this.

They don't need to write a female Doctor, they just need to write a Doctor. In what way has the Doctor been written as specifically male previously?

I'm pretty sure that Cameca wouldn't have assumed she was being proposed to if a female Doctor had offered her a cup of cocoa in "The Aztecs"...

And consider the opening scenes of "The Ribos Operation". The White Guardian has just given the Doctor the task of finding and assembling the pieces of the Key to Time... and tells him that he's taking along a Time Lady to help him. The Doctor isn't at all happy about it and goes into a somewhat sexist rant that assumes he'll have to drop what he's doing and protect her since a lot of his female companions seem to scream and cry and get captured and need rescuing, and couldn't he just go alone, with K-9 to help? (sure enough, Romana does get into that very situation through her own stupidity at the end of the first episode...)

Somehow I can't imagine a female Doctor complaining about how "these girls" are constantly getting into trouble and needing to be saved.

I follow Colin on Twitter and he's clearly a lovely man. I just wish I could like his portrayal of Six better!

I didn't like him at first, but was sorry when he was forced to leave. I think a lot of the problem was that he was saddled with two of the most annoying companions in the whole Classic era (Peri and Mel).

They take a risk with everything. People hated Smith, vowed not to watch Capaldi, Catherine Tate was going to ruin the show as was Matt Lucas, RTD had a gay agenda that was putting people off, Steven Moffat is sexism personified and I won't watch any more. No matter what they do vocal minorites will hate it and say it's the downfall of the show. Here we are 13 years later.

What finally did push me to stop watching was the increasingly awful stories and Clara. I saw someone else in this thread say she was coming back. If she does and it's anything more than saying goodbye to Capaldi's Doctor or finally dying herself, I won't care how good the new Doctor is. Clara's return would be the final straw that would make me turn my back on the show, and just enjoy the previous Doctors' pre-Clara stories (much as I've left Star Trek since I won't be able to watch Discovery and I loathe nuTrek).

So, someone who has extremely poor grammar and an inability to form paragraphs believes that the Doctor is a surrogate father figure to her and has thus altered the terms of that relationship and abandoned her by effectively having a sex change?

And we are supposed to take this drivel seriously?

There are some Canadian women with weird attitudes. The one who wrote this post reminds me of the ones who posted on our Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's website supporting the sexist refusal of the Conservative members of our senate to pass the gender-neutral change to the national anthem. The change involves just three words, but they make a world of difference to the women who have always felt excluded. It's mindboggling how so many Reformacon-voting women get angry over same-sex marriage and transgender rights being added to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, yet turn around and say with a straight face (no pun intended) that they don't want Canadian women on our money and that "true patriot love in all thy sons command" includes women, because women are sons, too.

And if this woman thinks that the Fifth Doctor was in any way like a father (more like an older brother or teacher-figure) or Romana I was like a mother, then she must have been watching some alt-universe version of the show in which neither Peter Davison nor Mary Tamm were part of it. The only "father-figure"-like thing that was even hinted at was in "The Five Doctors" when the Fifth Doctor met Susan and smiled at her wistfully (after all, it had been quite a long time since he left her on 22nd-century Earth with only the clothes on her back and one shoe to her name).

We have also gotten a woman Master and Harriet Jones was a woman prime minister.

If they (TPTB) would grant me one wish for a nuWho story, it would be for the Doctor (preferably the Tenth, but this new one would be fun as well) to materialize the TARDIS on the lawn of Highclere Castle. The sound would startle two elderly women out sitting on a bench under a tree, and the Doctor would come out. "Oy, Harriet Jones! Your holiday's over, time to get back to work!"

Whereupon it would be revealed that before Harriet Jones had angered the Doctor in her last episode, he took her on a brief holiday in England's past... and she became stranded. She had to make a new life for herself while she waited for the Doctor to return, and ended up marrying into the Crawley family, giving birth to Matthew, and eventually becoming friends with Violet Crawley many years later. The Doctor ends up taking both women along as his/her new companions and they have some wild and crazy adventures before Harriet Jones/Isobel Crawley goes back to work as Prime Minister and Violet goes back to being "Granny" to Mary and Edith Crawley.

Next step is a woman show runner. For me though the issue doesn't have to be all black and white. Jason

Didn't they already do that back in 1963, with Verity Lambert? And yeah, everything was all black and white then.

The ones who reject change deserve to be left behind. Nothing good was ever accomplished by people who wanted things to stay the same.

Not all change is good. Some change should be resisted (of course I'm not referring to Doctor Who - drop into one of the Handmaid's Tale threads to see what I mean).

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Honestly this talk of men needing role models strikes me as the irony in all of this. Girls and women have to identify role models from the male heroes in the media all the time and get very few women role models.

I keep seeing this comparison of they should make Xena or Wonder Woman a man and see what happens, but people forget Xena was a spin off from Hercules, same type of show, two male leads instead of two female lead. So that show already exists. And Wonder Woman was created specifically because male superheroes already exists and no female ones did.

RevdKathy says her preference is for the Doctor to be male, simply because that's what she's used to, had crushes on various Doctors and honestly a female Doctor just feels odd, but this is a reaction on it being new, it's certainly not a rejection of the idea, or a 'that's it, I'm not watching any more'. In all honesty she's more worried about Chibnall coming in and turning it in to a heavily serialised or just plain bad show. So I know not all people who dislike the idea are being sexist they're just in need of adjusting to the idea. But honestly some of these reactions are just... In need of a therapist or at least a realisation that there's more to the world than your individual experience.