News Jo Martin reflects on her time as a Black, middle-aged, female Doctor

[The Nth Doctor]

As part of International Women's Day, Jo Martin talked to Radio Times about what it meant to appear on Doctor Who as a Black, middle-aged, female Doctor.

“So part of me felt like, ‘She might be the only one for a long while, because they’ll feel like that’s enough for us.’ That happens with a lot of black actors. They’ve given it to one, and that’s enough. You can all run along now. It’s all done and dusted.

“So to bring another woman on? I was just like, ‘What are the odds that it’s going to be me?’ A black woman? A black middle-aged woman? Which is also pretty key.

“Hats off to them,” she continued. “I mean, they’ve set the standard. They have absolutely set the standard. Even if you’re going to cast a woman, or even a black woman, you’d think they’d get a youngster, because you become invisible again after a certain age.”​

She also talked about how she would love return to the show (especially with John Bishop on the show now) or even the possibility of a spin-off.

There's also a second Radio Times article where a collection of women who work on Doctor Who (including Jo Martin) talk about what International Women's Day means to them.

 

[Starkers]

That's great I'd love to see her Doctor again

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I think its excruciatingly insulting that Chibnall reserved the casting of a black, middle-aged woman as the Doctor as a guest casting. It devalues the importance, to me, and as a fan I'm eternally grateful that we at least a fantastic presence like Jo Martin to be that secret Doctor.

I would love to see more of her... but I'm trepidetious. It would mean a few things:
1) Chibnall would be handling this, which I'm not a fan of.
2) Chibnall would be writing for her, which I'm even less a fan of.
3) It could confirm some disturbing rumors of the Thirteenth Doctor's memories of ALL her previous selfs been wiped and Martin would, effectively, be the "first" Doctor, with no idea who she is other thana traveller in time and space. I despise this rumor, but its source also correctly predicted the Timeless Children fiasco, which I loathe to my core.

Thus, I would much rather BF develop her, and fold her as a secret, CIA-created inbetween-Second-and-Third-Doctor(s) who at once operates exclusively under the tyrannical rule of the CIA, who promise her limited freedom but she also can handle their messes. I've come to love this theory, cause its close to my other old theory of a secret incarnation between 8 and 9 (when I'd started watching Who but hadn't reached the latter Smith era yet and wasn't aware of the Hurt casting and so forth). It would fit decently between War Games and Spearhead from Space, and you could start the season 6B series with a recast Troughton (Christopher Thomson) being their patchy, until he decides to run (which he did in the original TV Comic that predated Spearhead) but is cought by the CIA, who regenerate him with the intent of better serving their agency. Following the events of Fugitive though, the CIA realize they have to cut their losses and decide to simply wipe her memory and have her begin her exile as the Third Doctor, basically restoring her at her proper placement in the timeline and regenerate into Jon Pertwee's Doctor. But not before the Doctor does something incredibly harmful to the CIA, which she does to ensure they never ever use her ever again as their vessel, at least in that secretive manner. She does lose her memories, though, which makes sense because then she can't be remembered until the Thirteenth Doctor is reminded of her.

Oh, my. What a fanfic. Sorry for the long post, gang. But, in my defense, Chibnall will likely not do anything even remotely as cool as the above. But apologies all the same.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

That's great I'd love to see her Doctor again

Yup, same here. I doubt a spinoff will happen but I would absolutely love it it did.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I think its excruciatingly insulting that Chibnall reserved the casting of a black, middle-aged woman as the Doctor as a guest casting. It devalues the importance, to me, and as a fan I'm eternally grateful that we at least a fantastic presence like Jo Martin to be that secret Doctor.

Dafuq? This is as silly as writing, "I think it's excruciatingly insulting that Moffat reserved the casting of an elderly, goateed man as the Doctor as a guest casting" for John Hurt. Or, "I think it's excruciatingly insulting that Berman reserved the casting of a woman as the captain of the Enterprise as a guest casting" for Rachel Garrett in "Yesterday's Enterprise." (Sorry, I'm blanking on the actress's name.) There's literally nothing wrong with being a guest star, one that hints at an entire chapter of history the audience doesn't know, in someone else's show.

Thus, I would much rather BF develop her, and fold her as a secret, CIA-created inbetween-Second-and-Third-Doctor(s) who at once operates exclusively under the tyrannical rule of the CIA, who promise her limited freedom but she also can handle their messes.

I don't think that's at all consistent with what "The Timeless Children" heavily implied. Also, I sort of imagine she'd be off-limits to Big Finish right now.

I've said before that, if Jodie is leaving, I'd like to see Jo Martin follow her... not as the fourteenth Doctor, but as the pre-Hartnell Doctor she appears to be. To do that, I'd end Jodie's run with a multi-Doctor story with Jodie and Jo, end it on a kind of cliffhanger, and follow Jo's Doctor in the resolution at the start of the next series. If future producers want to continue forward from Jo, fine. If they want to follow on from Jodie (a la Philip Segal), they can do that, too. Lots of options.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Or, "I think it's excruciatingly insulting that Berman reserved the casting of a woman as the captain of the Enterprise as a guest casting" for Rachel Garrett in "Yesterday's Enterprise." (Sorry, I'm blanking on the actress's name.)

Tricia O'Neil.

I completely agree with what you said here. I didn't bother responding because I'm so very exhausted by these accusations from various people. It's just not worth giving any of it any oxygen.

I don't think that's at all consistent with what "The Timeless Children" heavily implied. Also, I sort of imagine she'd be off-limits to Big Finish right now.

Indeed on both counts. I imagine it'll be quite sometime before Big Finish has the opportunity to use The Ruth Doctor.

I've said before that, if Jodie is leaving, I'd like to see Jo Martin follow her... not as the fourteenth Doctor, but as the pre-Hartnell Doctor she appears to be. To do that, I'd end Jodie's run with a multi-Doctor story with Jodie and Jo, end it on a kind of cliffhanger, and follow Jo's Doctor in the resolution at the start of the next series. If future producers want to continue forward from Jo, fine. If they want to follow on from Jodie (a la Philip Segal), they can do that, too. Lots of options.

I really like this idea. It's bold, it's different, and it gives Jo Martin the chance to shine. I just wonder if something that different from the Doctor Who mold is something Chibnall or his successor or even BBC would be willing to do. I, for one, would welcome it.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Dafuq? This is as silly as writing, "I think it's excruciatingly insulting that Moffat reserved the casting of an elderly, goateed man as the Doctor as a guest casting" for John Hurt.

William Hartnell, Patrick Troughton, Jon Pertwee and Peter Capaldi are fairly old-looking gentlemen who led the show. So the comparison would be apt, if the show had never had an elderly-looking person ever before. Martin's casting as the first female black Doctor was royally wasted in a stunt casting, in a part he admited was never going to be the Doctor until late in the writing process anyway.

I don't think that's at all consistent with what "The Timeless Children" heavily implied. Also, I sort of imagine she'd be off-limits to Big Finish right now.

Beyond the inherent argument of mine being that the Timeless Children implication being of no importance to me personally (and I say importance and not something a lot less polite), I also argued that the Martin Doctor being a 2.5 Doctor is inherently more interesting, since its not intent on reversing simple facts from the show's history, like how the Doctor's TARDIS wasn't stuck in the Police Box form until he was the First Doctor, and so forth. That I ignore the, er, revelations of that finale episode is not an argument to call me out on, since I'm aware of it enough but also intent with it not becoming the focal point of another pointless discussion of canon.

I've said before that, if Jodie is leaving, I'd like to see Jo Martin follow her... not as the fourteenth Doctor, but as the pre-Hartnell Doctor she appears to be. To do that, I'd end Jodie's run with a multi-Doctor story with Jodie and Jo, end it on a kind of cliffhanger, and follow Jo's Doctor in the resolution at the start of the next series. If future producers want to continue forward from Jo, fine. If they want to follow on from Jodie (a la Philip Segal), they can do that, too. Lots of options.

I would not be for it, for two reasons. Which I have explained, among them being not a fan of Martin being a pre-Hartnell Doctor. At all. But I think I explained myself there. Second, a pre-Doctor would not fit with the inherent going-forward agenda that characterizes the show. And lastly, if there's any unseen Doctor adventures the BBC could follow, I'd rather those were Paul McGann's, quite frankly.

Also, the idea of Chibnall staying on the show depresses me as a fan. But what depresses me more is, after being fairly civil in my discourse that there's an attempt (?) to label me within a group of "some people" that basically whine and bitch about Who without arguing in civil manner. I'm not here to insult Chibnall's Who, but at the same time "some people" should also learn to accept that people like myself simply don't like his (lets say controversial) stance and handling of the show, and accept that that won't change at least anytime soon. Being superior about it helps no one, especially when the end result is being not so.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Beyond the inherent argument of mine being that the Timeless Children implication being of no importance to me personally (and I say importance and not something a lot less polite), I also argued that the Martin Doctor being a 2.5 Doctor is inherently more interesting, since its not intent on reversing simple facts from the show's history, like how the Doctor's TARDIS wasn't stuck in the Police Box form until he was the First Doctor, and so forth. That I ignore the, er, revelations of that finale episode is not an argument to call me out on, since I'm aware of it enough but also intent with it not becoming the focal point of another pointless discussion of canon.

Ummmm...what?!

Whatever.

That whole line of argument is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I really like this idea. It's bold, it's different, and it gives Jo Martin the chance to shine. I just wonder if something that different from the Doctor Who mold is something Chibnall or his successor or even BBC would be willing to do. I, for one, would welcome it.

I'm really interested in the idea of replacing a Doctor without a regeneration. I thought, honestly, that was how Davies and Moffat were going to handle the Ten-Eleven hand-off. (The whole narrative mode of the first part, with Rassilon narrating it from the future. The kneeling Time Lord who looked a bit like Matt Smith.)

I'm intrigued by the possibilities of a pre-Hartnell Doctor. (Forgotten Lives is sitting on my TBR pile.) What does this earlier Doctor not know about the universe? What does she know that the "present" Doctor doesn't? The production team could take an "everything is new" approach (a la the EDAs, post-The Burning), or they could do in an entirely unexpected direction and Jo Martin knows too much for her own good. I sometimes wonder what River knows of the Doctor's pre-Hartnell lives -- and at what point she knows she can talk to a post-Ten Doctor about them. Or, for that matter, Jack; surely he's run into a few in his lifetime.

We're coming up on sixty years, and fans have an idea of how things are supposed to be. Surprise them. Try something different!

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

That whole line of argument is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

So I'm not allowed to express my thoughts when they're paired with an admiration for the Martin Doctor because you don't like that they deviate? What kind of stance is that? Am I supposed to express freely or not?

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I'm really interested in the idea of replacing a Doctor without a regeneration. I thought, honestly, that was how Davies and Moffat were going to handle the Ten-Eleven hand-off. (The whole narrative mode of the first part, with Rassilon narrating it from the future. The kneeling Time Lord who looked a bit like Matt Smith.)

Oh, yes, I remember that theory floated around at that time (or maybe it was just your own speculation that I read). It's an intriguing proposition certainly and I hope that it happens at some point.

I'm intrigued by the possibilities of a pre-Hartnell Doctor. (Forgotten Lives is sitting on my TBR pile.) What does this earlier Doctor not know about the universe? What does she know that the "present" Doctor doesn't? The production team could take an "everything is new" approach (a la the EDAs, post-The Burning), or they could do in an entirely unexpected direction and Jo Martin knows too much for her own good. I sometimes wonder what River knows of the Doctor's pre-Hartnell lives -- and at what point she knows she can talk to a post-Ten Doctor about them. Or, for that matter, Jack; surely he's run into a few in his lifetime.

All interesting ideas, although I suspect we won't ever get answers about what Jack and River know on the main show. That sounds like future Big Finish fodder (and I'm all for it!).

We're coming up on sixty years, and fans have an idea of how things are supposed to be. Surprise them. Try something different!

Something different! Crazy talk!

Bring it on.

 

[Captaindemotion]

I'm really interested in the idea of replacing a Doctor without a regeneration.

Quite possibly due to midweek slump, I’m not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean just skipping to the new Doctor without showing what happened to the old one? Is that not sort of what they did with Eccleston in Rose (albeit that you’re suggesting this as part of an ongoing series, rather than in a revival after a hiatus)?

 

[kirk55555]

I'd actually really like seeing her back, as long as its after Chibnall fucks off. She was the only decent thing he introduced, and she's easy enough to retcon into the timeline even ignoring the stupid "timeless child" shit (I like thinking about her as being after the 2nd Doctor but before the 3rd doctor, since we never saw the 2nd Doctor regenerate and the Season 6B theory had him working for the timelords, kind of like what she was doing).

Unfortunately, very few characters seem to survive a showrunner change (Jack being the only notable one so far), and while I'm sure that Jo martin will eventually have a decent side gig working for Big Finish, I don't think she'll be coming back once a competent person is in charge of the show.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Quite possibly due to midweek slump, I’m not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean just skipping to the new Doctor without showing what happened to the old one? Is that not sort of what they did with Eccleston in Rose (albeit that you’re suggesting this as part of an ongoing series, rather than in a revival after a hiatus)?

That's exactly what I mean. Leave one Doctor open-ended, and pick up sometime later -- or even before! -- with a different Doctor. How'd we get there? Who knows! That's the wonder of it

The BBC isn't likely to do that, I know, for the simple reason that they see regeneration stories as big events that will draw the Not-We.

Like, I'm glad "Night of the Doctor" exists, but I didn't need it. I'd have been perfectly happy thinking that McGann walked off into the sunset and eventually turned into John Hurt.

 

[The Wormhole]

Having an open-ended regeneration does mean you could bring back the departing Doctor for a multi Doctor adventure without worrying about them looking older than they were when they were the Doctor. After all, we never saw them regenerate, we have no idea how much that particular Doctor aged. After all, that's basically what allowed Night of the Doctor to work with a noticeably older Paul McGann.

But yeah, BBC is more concerned with having their Regeneration Television Event than they are with whether or not this Doctor will look too old when they return for an anniversary special.

 

[Captaindemotion]

I can see the point of doing it that way, for the reasons you both suggest. Additionally, given that it’s a show about a time-traveller, it might be kinda cool if we dipped in and out of his adventures out of chronological order. A couple of seasons with the 16th doctor, then one with the 14th, then the 17th, then the 15th etc. And the point about not worrying about their ages would remain.

But for all of that, I think a lot of fans like closure, which is why Night of the Doctor was so well-received and probably why Moffat also ended Day of the Doctor with the War Doctor regenerating into Nine.

 

[Starkers]

They wouldn't even let RTD age Tennant up a bit would they?

 

[Captaindemotion]

They wouldn't even let RTD age Tennant up a bit would they?

Apparently not, no. And I think it was the same logic that meant Matt’s Doctor had to revert to his youthful appearance in the last few minutes of his swansong.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Apparently not, no. And I think it was the same logic that meant Matt’s Doctor had to revert to his youthful appearance in the last few minutes of his swansong.

That still annoys me.

 

[Captaindemotion]

That still annoys me.

I don’t mind that so much; I think it was a shame that Tennant’s Doctor didn’t show signs of having lived a longer incarnation. Of course, I suppose his having “died” young makes his “I don’t want to go” all the more poignant.