JJ's era and excess if not unfair blame on Rian Johnson

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by Cutie McWhiskers, Apr 28, 2019.

  1. Neroon

    Neroon Mod of Balance Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2000
    Location:
    On my ship the Rocinante
    I hope you both have that out of your system, now, because I expect you both to move along now. This is not the topic we're looking for
     
    fireproof78 likes this.
  2. Campe98

    Campe98 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2001
    Location:
    Texas
    My apologies, Neroon. Consider it dropped.
     
    fireproof78 likes this.
  3. RandyS

    RandyS Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2007
    Location:
    Randyland
    Agreed.

    Truce?
     
    Campe98 likes this.
  4. Campe98

    Campe98 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2001
    Location:
    Texas
    You got it.
     
  5. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Location:
    Morrowind
    Prequels in da house!!!
     
  6. Campe98

    Campe98 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2001
    Location:
    Texas
    I liked that he called him Darth Sidious. It was a nice reminder that, “Yeah, you might not have liked them but the prequels did happen in-story.”
     
    fireproof78 likes this.
  7. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    It was a weird and out-of-character reminder. Even if Luke had learned The Emperor's Sith name at some point, which, fine, why wouldn't he keep using the title he grew up with? And why would he assume that Rey, someone from nowhere, would know that Sith name?

    Jimmy Smits in Rogue One was a good acknowledgement of the PT; this wasn't. IMO.
     
  8. Campe98

    Campe98 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2001
    Location:
    Texas
    For the viewer, yes, it’s absolutely there for just a callback.

    In universe, if I need an answer (I really personally don’t, but...) First, this idea that it’s not “in character” is kinda ridiculous. The idea that Luke couldn’t change his viewpoint is ridiculous as the idea that our heroes can’t change in those thirty years. At all. Also, is it possible that at some point, the galaxy found out the entire story behind the Fall of the Republic at some point and maybe learned that Palps was in fact a Sith named Darth Sidious? I mean, the entire time they had a Sith named Darth Vader as the enforcer for Sidious. It’s not that hard to make that leap of logic that it could be revealed.

    People complain about TFA and TLJ and their use of callbacks but nothing, in my opinion, was worse than cameo after cameo after cameo in Rogue One followed by the most fanboyish Vader moment of all time. I will admit, I watched R1 again last weekend and it was better than I remembered but it certainly wasn’t because of any of the callbacks.

    Even Bail Organa.
     
  9. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    If that's the case, why does Kylo seem completely unaware of Vader's last-minute turn toward the light?
     
  10. Ithekro

    Ithekro Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Location:
    Republic of California
    Kylo's probably aware of it, but been fed Dark Side propaganda for years now to believe that was a weakness in Darth Vader.

    Though it should be remembered that Darth Vader being Anakin Skywalker may or may not still have been at the very least, a family secret. Certainly the parentage of Leia Organa as being the daughter of Darth Vader was a secret until about six years before the events of TFA.
     
    fireproof78 likes this.
  11. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    How do we know Luke knows Palpatine's name? He was always called the Emperor in films.

    Luke, even in EU studied Sith artifacts recovered from Sidious. So, he might have changed in intervening years.

    And Rey has the texts and other materials from Luke .. Perhaps she became familiar with The Dark Side lore
    I doubt he believes it even if he knew, which Luke may have hidden, like Leia did her connection to Vader.
     
  12. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    As I said: he should have referred to Palps (whose name isn't mentioned in the OT at all) by the title he always knew him as, The Emperor.

    No, it's not at all inconceivable he could have learned Palps' Darth title, and may even have publicized a history of his actual life. But it was just plain weird and jarring, and unnecessarily so, IMO.
     
  13. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Location:
    Morrowind
    But she doesn't get those texts until after the conversation in question ( and it's unlikely Darth Sidious is mentioned in ancient Jedi texts anyway ).
     
  14. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    I don't see it as jarring...sorry.

    For real world examples, I know many people who change how they refer to people, and that's only over the course of (maybe) ten years and how people refer to themselves as well.

    Finally, does Luke even refer to him as the Emperor? He calls him "Your Highness" in kind of a mocking way, but that's all I can recall. Been a while though.

    I'm not trying to be pedantic but it's jarring to me that this is an issue... :shrug:

    I wasn't just referring to the ancient texts, but fair enough. I was more speculating as to what knowledge Luke may have researched and gathered after recovering the Sith artifacts post Empire. I know it's not canon (and don't really care) but even the book "The Way of the Sith" has little annotations from Luke with the idea of him reviewing post ROTJ. Again, not canon but it makes sense to me.

    YMMV. Honestly, I see it as a non-issue.
     
    Campe98 likes this.
  15. USS Firefly

    USS Firefly Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    I agree, 10 years ago when I thought about my boss (no not my wife) I thought of his name, now I think of him as dumdass. So Luke can think differently about Sidious in the reboot
     
  16. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    Well, that's one way to put it :D

    More on point is a simple question of why would Luke have any particular attachment to a name for his enemy? He only met Palpatine once, and his interactions with him were hardly positive.

    And, largely, it seems to me that this is an expectation of characters to remain the same and not evolve like people might.
     
    Campe98 likes this.
  17. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    It's jarring to you that someone online has a somewhat different opinion on a detail from a Star Wars movie than you?

    Whatever, I've made my point several times; I'm done. ;)
     
  18. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    That's not what I meant but that's fine. :shrug:
     
  19. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Location:
    Arizona, USA
    When did Luke refer to Darth Sidious?
     
  20. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Location:
    Morrowind
    TLJ. "At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire, and wipe them out."

    "I know there is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. That is why you couldn't destroy me. That's why you won't bring me to your Emperor now."
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
    Gaith likes this.