"JJ" Scotty vs. "Classic" Scotty

[RCAM]

Kirk was outwardly dismayed that Scotty was willing to let an insult to his captain slide, but not an insult to his ship. I don't think I'd agree that it was in any way out-of-character. Quite the contrary: it was perfectly in-character for Scotty to take personal pride in the ship and to take personally any aspersion cast upon it.

I was more referring to Kirk's reaction before Scotty gave him the reason. "YOU... started the fight?"

I think it was "in-character" for him to be offended, but it wasn't "in-character" for him to defy Kirk's orders. When I use that phrase, I don't mean that the writers incorrectly portrayed Scotty. I mean that Scotty lost his head in a way he usually wouldn't, as all of us do from time to time.

Eh, it's okay. I don't think anyone will hold it against you.

Good.

 

[Amaris]

Yeah, debate can be fun, as long as people keep it nice and clean. Unless they get dirty, then dirty can be fun, but it's not as fun as good natured debate, which is a bit more fun, most of the time. I was going somewhere with this, I swear, I just don't remember where, or who was coming with me. Let me start over.

Yeah, debate can be fun!

 

[Gov Kodos]

He also admitted to Kirk and later LaForge that he would lie about repair times.

I really hate that "Relics" took a joke from TSFS and made it into Scotty's actual modus operandi.

It is also a reasonable idea when repairing something for the captain. Tell that guy a time and he will expect it done. Disappoint him one too many times and you're off the ship. Give yourself a factor for screw ups and the unexpected that will come with a complex machine being built and/or repaired. Stuff works perfectly first time and every time for the A-Team or Batman, real life not so much.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

He also admitted to Kirk and later LaForge that he would lie about repair times.

Jesus, not this debate again.

It wasn't about lying about repair times, it was about building margins into repair estimates.

In "Relics", Scotty's point is reflected later in dialog, about being conservative on paper in regulation 42/15. Captains generally aren't engineers. Unexpected issues come up. Repair estimates are just that: estimates. Better to have some flexibility than to be caught with your pants down.

Lying is implicitly unethical. Building an extra margin into repair estimates isn't unethical. It's responsible. Scotty admonished La Forge for being irresponsible, in trying to run too tight a ship.

It's also worth remembering that Scotty was cut off in the middle of what he was saying to La Forge in that scene, so we never got to hear everything he was going to say.

Being a miracle worker didn't mean getting praises. Scotty was never shown to care for accolades. Being a miracle workers meant saving the ship in dangerous situations. The ship is what he cares about. Captains are less likely to put their ship in danger, if they think the envelope of what the ship can do is somewhat smaller than it really is. Once things start to break down, that's where the envelope can actually end up being.

All of this fits nuScotty to a tee, especially in STID. nuScotty was willing to have his career flushed, just so he could better protect his ship. The ship was more important than accolades. He wanted to know every detail. Margins that were insignificant to nuKirk were crucial to nuScotty.

Also, what Gov Kodos said.

 

[Jeyl]

nuScotty was willing to have his career flushed, just so he could better protect his ship.

...by not being there to fix it?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

nuScotty was willing to have his career flushed, just so he could better protect his ship.

...by not being there to fix it?

What's so confusing about that?

While he's Chief Engineer, Scotty has standards to maintain for the ship that it's his duty to protect. Scotty laid his case out to Kirk, who, instead of listening, relieved him of duty.

When Scotty was relieved of duty, the Enterprise was no longer his ship to serve on as Chief Engineer.

Was there an actual point there, or is this just a pedantic jab, and a spurious one at that?

 

[ManOnTheWave]

Pegg's Scotty feels like it's modeled more after the older Doohan Scotty of the movies (specifically IV and V) and less after the Scotty of TOS. That's all.

 

[Ryan8bit]

I agree with CorporalCaptain. I don't see the issue of padding out estimates, so long as it isn't done excessively, and actually factors in a margin for error.

But for whatever reason, Abrams and posse see Scotty as a buffoon.

For as much as people are saying this is just a young Scotty, I think in actuality they are just borrowing from the older Scotty that we see in Star Trek IV and V. Even that character is different from the Scotty in TOS, but it's what pop culture remembers him as, so it's how he was portrayed. I don't have a problem with it really though. I like Simon Pegg and the new Scotty.

EDIT: D'oh, ManOnTheWave posted that point about the movies as I was posting!

 

[Lance]

Yeah, when "Relics" made that statement about the 'difference' between Scotty and LaForge, I was left thinking Geordi must run his engineering teams ragged trying to meet his 'to the minute' estimates to the Captain of how long it'll take to fix things.

What isn't shown on-screen is the undoubted number of times Geordi has to hit his comm-badge and sheepishly tell the Captain "I'm sorry sir, but it turns out the [tech] and the [tech] will need to be recalibrated as well, so it'll take another 5 hours on top of my original estimate". And Picard's irritated reaction.

Scotty wasn't being deceptive in telling Kirk inflated estimates on repair times. He was allowing his teams the lee-way for unexpected compilcations, and those times when he used to bring her in well before the estimated time ultimately led to this little "inside joke" between he and Kirk about him being a miracle worker.

Although I don't underplay Scotty's potential to actually work "miracles", I don't think the tag is really anything except a bit of playful banter between Scotty and Jim.

 

[Ryan8bit]

What isn't shown on-screen is the undoubted number of times Geordi has to hit his comm-badge and sheepishly tell the Captain "I'm sorry sir, but it turns out the [tech] and the [tech] will need to be recalibrated as well, so it'll take another 5 hours on top of my original estimate". And Picard's irritated reaction.

Or his visits to Counselor Troi about all the anxiety it causes him disappointing Picard and not being able to deliver.

 

[DonIago]

So it wasn't that he couldn't get dates, it was that he expected them to show up on time and if they were even a second late then they weren't right for him.

Anyway, I pad my project estimates at work as well, because I'd certainly rather surprise my manager by completing something early than by having to tell him, "This won't be done when I originally expected."

 

[RCAM]

Thanks for the good ongoing discussion, all. I'm enjoying it.

The point about Scotty in IV/V is interesting. It's been a while since I've seen them (V, in particular, since I hate it), but I do remember some very fun, light-hearted Scotty moments.

Obviously, the best is:

"Computer? ... HELLO, computer..."

 

[Runetouch]

I like the original Scotty more. JJ Scotty is too much of a comic relief and I find that I cannot take him seriously at all.

 

[Jeyl]

When Scotty was relieved of duty, the Enterprise was no longer his ship to serve on as Chief Engineer.

So his idea of protecting the Enterprise is essentially "Not my problem anymore."? I'm sorry, but abandoning something in what could be a dangerous situation is not my idea of effectively protecting something.

When I think of scene where Scotty defies orders from his superiors, I think back to that episode "A Taste of Armageddon".

FOX: Diplomacy, gentlemen, should be a job left to diplomats. You will, of course, immediately resume a peaceful status.
SCOTTY: No, sir, I will not.
FOX: What did you say?
SCOTTY: I'll not lower the screens, not until the Captain tells me to.
FOX: You are taking orders from me. You will lower the screens as a sign of good faith. My authority.
SCOTTY: I know about your authority, but the screens stay up.
MCCOY: Mister Fox, they faked a message from the Captain, they've launched an attack against our ship. Now you want us to trust them openly?
FOX: I want you and expect you to obey my lawful orders.
SCOTTY: No, sir. I won't lower the screens.
FOX: Your refusal to comply with my orders has endangered the entire success of this mission. I can have you sent to a penal colony for this.
SCOTTY: That you can, sir, but I won't lower the screens.
FOX: Your name will figure prominently in my report to the Federation Central.​

Now THAT is my idea of a Scotty who would risk his career to protect the ship. He's not backing off or offering his resignation simply because his superior officer doesn't agree with his assessment.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

When Scotty was relieved of duty, the Enterprise was no longer his ship to serve on as Chief Engineer.

So his idea of protecting the Enterprise is essentially "Not my problem anymore."? I'm sorry, but abandoning something in what could be a dangerous situation is not my idea of effectively protecting something.

When I think of scene where Scotty defies orders from his superiors, I think back to that episode "A Taste of Armageddon".

FOX: Diplomacy, gentlemen, should be a job left to diplomats. You will, of course, immediately resume a peaceful status.
SCOTTY: No, sir, I will not.
FOX: What did you say?
SCOTTY: I'll not lower the screens, not until the Captain tells me to.
FOX: You are taking orders from me. You will lower the screens as a sign of good faith. My authority.
SCOTTY: I know about your authority, but the screens stay up.
MCCOY: Mister Fox, they faked a message from the Captain, they've launched an attack against our ship. Now you want us to trust them openly?
FOX: I want you and expect you to obey my lawful orders.
SCOTTY: No, sir. I won't lower the screens.
FOX: Your refusal to comply with my orders has endangered the entire success of this mission. I can have you sent to a penal colony for this.
SCOTTY: That you can, sir, but I won't lower the screens.
FOX: Your name will figure prominently in my report to the Federation Central.​

Now THAT is my idea of a Scotty who would risk his career to protect the ship. He's not backing off or offering his resignation simply because his superior officer doesn't agree with his assessment.

In STID, Kirk was the one being an asshole, not Scotty, and that was behavior that nuKirk later regretted. Scotty leaving the ship was Kirk's fault not Scotty's, and that can't fairly be twisted into Scotty saying that it wasn't his problem.

In "A Taste of Armageddon", Scotty was left in charge by Kirk, and Fox evidently didn't have the authority to relieve Scotty on the spot, or he likely would have, but rather only threaten him with getting told on and punishment later. Not the same thing.

The major difference here is in Kirk, not Scotty.

 

[Gov Kodos]

When Scotty was relieved of duty, the Enterprise was no longer his ship to serve on as Chief Engineer.

So his idea of protecting the Enterprise is essentially "Not my problem anymore."? I'm sorry, but abandoning something in what could be a dangerous situation is not my idea of effectively protecting something.

When I think of scene where Scotty defies orders from his superiors, I think back to that episode "A Taste of Armageddon".

FOX: Diplomacy, gentlemen, should be a job left to diplomats. You will, of course, immediately resume a peaceful status.
SCOTTY: No, sir, I will not.
FOX: What did you say?
SCOTTY: I'll not lower the screens, not until the Captain tells me to.
FOX: You are taking orders from me. You will lower the screens as a sign of good faith. My authority.
SCOTTY: I know about your authority, but the screens stay up.
MCCOY: Mister Fox, they faked a message from the Captain, they've launched an attack against our ship. Now you want us to trust them openly?
FOX: I want you and expect you to obey my lawful orders.
SCOTTY: No, sir. I won't lower the screens.
FOX: Your refusal to comply with my orders has endangered the entire success of this mission. I can have you sent to a penal colony for this.
SCOTTY: That you can, sir, but I won't lower the screens.
FOX: Your name will figure prominently in my report to the Federation Central.​

Now THAT is my idea of a Scotty who would risk his career to protect the ship. He's not backing off or offering his resignation simply because his superior officer doesn't agree with his assessment.

In STID, Kirk was the one being an asshole, not Scotty, and that was behavior that nuKirk later regretted. Scotty leaving the ship was Kirk's fault not Scotty's, and that can't fairly be twisted into Scotty saying that it wasn't his problem.

In "A Taste of Armageddon", Scotty was left in charge by Kirk, and Fox evidently didn't have the authority to relieve Scotty on the spot, or he likely would have, but rather only threaten him with getting told on and punishment later. Not the same thing.

The major difference here is in Kirk, not Scotty.

Fox is in charge of the mission, not the ship. Scotty can tell Fox to bugger off if they can't do something or won't do something to endanger the ship like drop the shields for the folks firing at them. Scotty's decision would then go to a court martial, but I suspect the situation would show evidence enough that Scotty was right to tell Fox to Fox off.

 

[Jeyl]

Scotty's decision would then go to a court martial, but I suspect the situation would show evidence enough that Scotty was right to tell Fox to Fox off.

And the objections over the torpedoes wouldn't?

 

[Gov Kodos]

Scotty's decision would then go to a court martial, but I suspect the situation would show evidence enough that Scotty was right to tell Fox to Fox off.

And the objections over the torpedoes wouldn't?

Fox isn't his superior officer, Kirk is. He was held hostage and the ship fired on. Very easy to defend against Fox's charges. He didn't fire any torpedoes or phasers so your point is meaningless.

 

[DonIago]

Fox wasn't in the chain of command; Kirk is the chain of command. If Scotty had an issue with Kirk's orders then, short of resigning, he'd either need to talk Spock or others into convincing Kirk to change his mind or get him removed from duty, or talk to someone over Kirk's head. Somehow I doubt Admiral Marcus would have been a very receptive audience.

 

[Jeyl]

Somehow I doubt Admiral Marcus would have been a very receptive audience.

Is Admiral Marcus really the only person an officer can go to if they have an issue with their Captain neglecting their responsibility for the safety of the ship and crew? If Marcus is the only person who can do anything and everything in Starfleet, why does he need to destroy the Enterprise when it tries to bring Khan back to Earth? He's the head of Starfleet. He can let Kirk do whatever it wants and Marcus can just say "No." and that would be that. If there are people who can reduce Marcus' authority (Which obviously is the case since they've got to show Khan to somebody), why doesn't NuScotty go to those people?

Say what you want about the chain of command in "A Taste of Armegeddon", but at least Scotty was acting on his own under pressure. This NuScotty just feels like he won't do anything unless it involves Kirk, and that's a big difference.