Jihad
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Yes, but he couldn't do that in the moment. And that's more or less what Sisko does at the end of "Inquisition," Section 31's first appearance. From the last scene of the episode:
BASHIR: Captain, is there any word from Starfleet about Sloan or Section 31?
SISKO: There's no record of a Deputy Director Sloan anywhere in Starfleet. And as for Section 31, that's a little more complicated. Starfleet Command doesn't acknowledge its existence, but they don't deny it either. They simply said they'd look into it and get back to me.
BASHIR: When?
SISKO: They didn't say.
KIRA: That sounds like a cover up to me.
BASHIR: I can't believe the Federation condones this kind of activity.
ODO: Personally, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't. Every other great power has a unit like Section 31. The Romulans have the Tal Shiar, the Cardassians had the Obsidian Order.
BASHIR: But what does that say about us? When push comes to shove, are we willing to sacrifice our principles in order to survive?
SISKO: I wish I had an answer for you, Doctor.
KIRA: Maybe we should do some checking, try to track down this Sloan ourselves.
ODO: That won't be easy. If he's right and Section 31 has existed since the birth of the Federation, they've learned to cover their tracks very well.
SISKO: We don't have to find them. They'll come to us. You said that Sloan tried to recruit you.
BASHIR: I turned him down.
SISKO: He doesn't strike me as a man who takes no for an answer. And next time he asks you to join his little group, you will say yes.
ODO: Well, congratulations, Doctor. Looks like you're going to get to play a spy after all. Only this time, for real.
I was thinking that Sisko found some passage or another in the original Starfleet Charter that had some ambiguous wording that could cover Section 31's existence, but since it isn't in the last scene of "Inquisition," I think I'm remembering the end of the TOS Section 31 novel Cloak by S.D. Perry, where after an encounter with some cloak & dagger types, Kirk gathers together other Starfleet Captains he can trust and they read section 31 of the Charter. Here's the passage from the last chapter:
Kirk reached into the lining of his shirt and pulled out a hardcopy of the Starfleet
Charter. A part of it, anyway, sections 28 through 34 printed out on a single sheet of paper.
He handed it to Wesley, sitting to his left. “I’d like each of you to read section 31, carefully,” he said. “It’s short, it won’t take long.”
Their server brought back a brimming pitcher and a half-dozen mugs before disappearing again. Kirk filled the mugs as the hardcopy was passed around the table, Stone reading last. When he raised his head, looking as confused as the rest of them, Kirk began his story.
It took a few minutes and he didn’t like telling it, but he left nothing out, starting with the line from section 31 that rather obscurely referred to the establishment of “an autonomous investigative agency,” one that held nonspecific discretionary power over nonspecific Starfleet matters. Hidden in plain sight.
Charter. A part of it, anyway, sections 28 through 34 printed out on a single sheet of paper.
He handed it to Wesley, sitting to his left. “I’d like each of you to read section 31, carefully,” he said. “It’s short, it won’t take long.”
Their server brought back a brimming pitcher and a half-dozen mugs before disappearing again. Kirk filled the mugs as the hardcopy was passed around the table, Stone reading last. When he raised his head, looking as confused as the rest of them, Kirk began his story.
It took a few minutes and he didn’t like telling it, but he left nothing out, starting with the line from section 31 that rather obscurely referred to the establishment of “an autonomous investigative agency,” one that held nonspecific discretionary power over nonspecific Starfleet matters. Hidden in plain sight.
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I don't think it's failing to understand the UFP at all. It's just that Ira Steven Behr was smart/worldly enough to understand that most utopias aren't as wonderful as they might appear at first glance. That goes right along with DS9's darker view of the Star Trek Universe and what I consider one of the central lines of the series: "It's easy to be a saint in Paradise."
YMMV, of course.
You know, I find it easier to believe the presented story of Jihad (ancient space faring race that can apparently manipulate time hand picking a commando team to stop a war) than I do believing in Sec 31.
Odo the difference between the other galactic powers and Sec 31 is that people acknowledge that the other ones exist.
As for the writing (and forgive me if I've said this before, I'm on my phone) an ordinary, sanctioned intelligence agency isn't sneaky enough?
Odo the difference between the other galactic powers and Sec 31 is that people acknowledge that the other ones exist.
As for the writing (and forgive me if I've said this before, I'm on my phone) an ordinary, sanctioned intelligence agency isn't sneaky enough?
Yeah, there's no way in hell an episode with that name would ever be made today...
Side note: Anyone else getting vaguely Firefly-ish vibes from the way Lara spoke?
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Unless all of existence is paradise, it would - in fact - be quite difficult to be a saint in paradise.
The trick is deciding how much of everything is "all existence." Is it the Federation? The galaxy? Or just your own back yard?
I mean, it's in the name. "All of existence" is everything that exists.
Why? Because you wouldn't be tested in Paradise?
Because a genuine saint - a wellspring of compassion and generosity - would be discontent residing in a bubble of boundless prosperity while keenly aware that others struggle simply to survive; such an individual would venture beyond their comfort...first to neighboring territories and then across the world. When the heavens are finally within reach, they would proceed to explore the interstellar spans before braving the vastness of intergalactic pilgrimage. All the while, practical assistance is rendered and wisdom dispensed as is needed.
For those spectators that are scratching their heads or rubbing their foreheads with an enviable intensity, rest easy: I understood the character's meaning the first time I watched that episode. This is just me doing my part to push back against the quiet cynicism (and many instances of "take that!") so prevalent in Deep Dish Nine.
Well, not what Sisko was talking about at all, so...
If others struggle simply to survive, then it's not paradise.
Oh my GOSH! Ben Sisko made NO SENSE! Hey, the Maquis had problems, sure, but Earthers had troubles too, you know! Do you know how long of a wait it is to get into Sisko's Creole Kitchen at this time of year? And we can't even bribe our way in because we have no MONEY! What do you think this is, some kind of paradise?!?
BASHIR: But what does that say about us? When push comes to shove, are we willing to sacrifice our principles in order to survive?
SISKO: I condoned the assassination of a Romulan commissioner and helped blame it on the Dominion so as to draw the Romulans into the war.
KIRA: Deep down I still condone terrorism as acceptable form of resistance.
Fixed that for you
SISKO: I condoned the assassination of a Romulan commissioner and helped blame it on the Dominion so as to draw the Romulans into the war.
KIRA: Deep down I still condone terrorism as acceptable form of resistance.
Fixed that for you
Getting FAR more into this concept than warranted: In the conception of paradise there is also a "not in paradise". "Expelled from paradise" and so on.
AFAIK, no one one Earth, the Sol system, Vulcan, etc. is anyone struggling to survive. They have to Boldly Go for that.
AFAIK, no one one Earth, the Sol system, Vulcan, etc. is anyone struggling to survive. They have to Boldly Go for that.
Yes, I believe that's what Ragitsu was getting at. The Federation's 'paradise' is limited to a certain part of the galaxy. So then, assuming that 'saintliness' involves deeds of mercy for those in need, and whatnot, saintly people who are aware of struggling elsewhere in the galaxy would want to leave their abode in paradise and go do altruistic things for the struggling masses outside of their paradise. If they stay in paradise then they would just be sitting there twiddling their thumbs.
Kor
Kor
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The problem with using Starfleet Intelligence in this capacity would be that S31 are supposed to be morally dubious, out of control antagonists. To use SI in this capacity would be to cast a pall on Starfleet in general, because Our Heroes are obviously aware of SI and are supposed to have some level of faith in their abilities. If they were corrupt but also widely-known, official, and answerable to a higher authority, that would beg questions regarding why they were being allowed to exist in the first place.
S31 is problematic because they're 'getting the job done' but also aren't accountable to anyone, and can't even easily be located to bring them to account for their actions.
I suppose Trek could have done a Winter Soldier-style arc in which it turned out that a faction of SI had embraced going too far toward allowing the ends to justify the means, but I can't see that coming up in any series other than DS9, and I don't think it's a story that TPTB wanted to tell...and if they did tell it, how would they do so effectively on top of all the other things that series was juggling?
In the novelverse, given that S31 was eventually brought to heel (more or less), it seems quite likely that a number of their agents did turn out to be embedded in SI...but a number of "good" characters were also called to account for their varying involvements with the organization, whether or not they were ultimately prosecuted.
S31 is problematic because they're 'getting the job done' but also aren't accountable to anyone, and can't even easily be located to bring them to account for their actions.
I suppose Trek could have done a Winter Soldier-style arc in which it turned out that a faction of SI had embraced going too far toward allowing the ends to justify the means, but I can't see that coming up in any series other than DS9, and I don't think it's a story that TPTB wanted to tell...and if they did tell it, how would they do so effectively on top of all the other things that series was juggling?
In the novelverse, given that S31 was eventually brought to heel (more or less), it seems quite likely that a number of their agents did turn out to be embedded in SI...but a number of "good" characters were also called to account for their varying involvements with the organization, whether or not they were ultimately prosecuted.
I mean, that's just Insurrection, isn't it?
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