Jihad

[The Wormhole]

Nah, I think that ship sailed in DS9. Multiple appearances on both DS9 and ENT. ENT even establishes that it's been there since the beginning.

It's established in DS9 "Inquisition" that Section 31 is in the Federation charter.

SLOAN: We don't submit reports or ask for approval for specific operations, if that's what you mean. We're an autonomous department.
BASHIR: Authorised by whom?
SLOAN: Section thirty one was part of the original Starfleet charter.
BASHIR: But that was two hundred years ago. Are you telling me you've been working on your own ever since? Without specific orders? Accountable to nobody but yourselves?
SLOAN: You make it sound so ominous.

I mean, one of the writers of Inquisition actually wrote a Trek novel which made it clear he viewed Section 31 as an illegal conspiracy. And before you start with "but novels aren't canon" I know they're not. But surely a Section 31 novel written by one of the guys who created the organization can be viewed as authoritative on the matter, no?

 

[Tallguy]

SLOAN: We don't submit reports or ask for approval for specific operations, if that's what you mean. We're an autonomous department.
BASHIR: Authorised by whom?
SLOAN: Section thirty one was part of the original Starfleet charter.
BASHIR: But that was two hundred years ago. Are you telling me you've been working on your own ever since? Without specific orders? Accountable to nobody but yourselves?
SLOAN: You make it sound so ominous.

Heh. I was so focusing on "Why don't you go look it up?" that I kind of missed Bashir's objection. My good doctor, are there parts of the Starfleet charter with expiration dates?

I mean, one of the writers of Inquisition actually wrote a Trek novel which made it clear he viewed Section 31 as an illegal conspiracy. And before you start with "but novels aren't canon" I know they're not. But surely a Section 31 novel written by one of the guys who created the organization can be viewed as authoritative on the matter, no?

It's certainly a very strong opinion. I lean on Roddenberry's TMP novel all the time. If not for "canon" then at least for What the Great Bird Thought About Stuff.

 

[The Wormhole]

I lean on Roddenberry's TMP novel all the time. If not for "canon" then at least for What the Great Bird Thought About Stuff.

Love Instructors, FTW!

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Section 31 can be a real Section. State security agencies are lawless all the time in real life, the world over and throughout history. But they don't focus their lawless behavior on patriotic, defensive measures abroad, as much as persecuting their own country's dissidents, and keeping the general public in line, often by trying to control what the public is allowed to know.

So they can be a real government office, accountable to no one, and act very much like a criminal conspiracy. That is very realistic.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But they don't focus their lawless behavior on patriotic, defensive measures abroad, as much as persecuting their own country's dissidents, and keeping the general public in line.

Section 31 is entirely the opposite. Their sole focus IS defensive measures abroad; they are completely unconcerned with internal security. They don't focus at all on punishing traitors or keeping the public in line (indeed, the public - if all goes well - will never even know that Section 31 exists in the first place).

Section 31 couldn't give sweet diddly squat about Federation dissidents (if any exist). They only care about EXTERNAL threats, not internal.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Section 31 couldn't give sweet diddly squat about Federation dissidents (if any exist). They only care about EXTERNAL threats, not internal.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned the distinction. I should have said it's the one unrealistic thing about S31.

 

[The Wormhole]

Section 31 couldn't give sweet diddly squat about Federation dissidents (if any exist).

The novels suggested otherwise, even going to the rather amusing extent that the only reason Admiral Leyton made it as far along with his coup attempt as he did was because Section 31 was too busy dealing with other Starfleet Admirals who had been red-flagged as a higher priority security threat.

 

[fireproof78]

It's certainly a very strong opinion. I lean on Roddenberry's TMP novel all the time. If not for "canon" then at least for What the Great Bird Thought About Stuff.

Then TOS is a dramatization of Kirk's logs and not authoritative or literal history.

 

[Shawnster]

I mean, one of the writers of Inquisition actually wrote a Trek novel which made it clear he viewed Section 31 as an illegal conspiracy. And before you start with "but novels aren't canon" I know they're not. But surely a Section 31 novel written by one of the guys who created the organization can be viewed as authoritative on the matter, no?

It's similar with Jeri Taylor's novel "Pathways." Taylor was, in essence, the DC Fontana of VOY. Surely her novels should be considered canon, no? Except, of course, all the instances where what was on screen contradicted the novel.

So, it's all a matter of what you want to pick and choose to accept and believe.

 

[DonIago]

I always figured S31 was only legal if you interpreted that section of the Federation charter in a way that was technically accurate but so far afield of the intended and/or generally-accepted meaning that the vast majority of beings who read it would never think that it sanctioned S31's activities. Of course, since there's no accountability within the organization, there's nobody to judge them either.

I also never thought S31's activities were limited to outside the Federation; it just sounds better if Sloan tells Bashir about threats posed by the Dominion than if he talks about how Admiral Jones didn't actually slip on his tea after he began advocating for a cease-fire with the Dominion.

In the end though, I don't really think the writers of "Inquisition" ever anticipated that S31 would receive the amount of exposure that it has within the franchise. In a way, good on them for raising compelling questions. In another way, maybe it would have been better if they hadn't...

What the NuNiverse did with them is somewhat irrelevant since Narada's incursion obviously had security ramifications for Starfleet, and it's easy enough to believe S31 would be more of a proper division in that timeline.

What DISCO did with them is a bit harder to handwave especially in light of what ENT had already done, though if you think of them as something that Starfleet ostensibly only activates during a pending crisis (e.g. the Klingon War) then it almost makes sense. ENT operated during peacetime, so S31 was operating covertly, but during the Klingon War they're activated...but after the fiasco with Control they're decommissioned/go dark again.

 

[fireproof78]

In the end though, I don't really think the writers of "Inquisition" ever anticipated that S31 would receive the amount of exposure that it has within the franchise. In a way, good on them for raising compelling questions. In another way, maybe it would have been better if they hadn't...

I don't see the bad thing in exploring the lengths people will go to survive in a show ostensibly about the human adventure. I suppose it cuts against the grain a little that all of Star Trek is not virtuous like the lead characters but we see that a lot with captains or other leaders going to extremes.

 

[drt]

I think part of the problem is that initially Section 31 wasn't as well defined in clear black and white terms as maybe it should have been. Bashir never got a straight answer from Sloan, but as with anything having to do with an "as need to know basis", it's never clear if Sloan is simply being purposefully obtuse as one expects secret agents to be.

So along the way some of the writers started treating Starfleet Intelligence and Section 31 as either one and the same, or that Section 31 as being the clandestine enforcement arm of Starfleet Intelligence (like the Double O section of James Bond).

 

[fireproof78]

So along the way some of the writers started treating Starfleet Intelligence and Section 31 as either one and the same, or that Section 31 as being the clandestine enforcement arm of Starfleet Intelligence

Why not both? To me, S31 retreats to the shadows, using obfuscation and official channels to accomplish purposes when not in the middle of a crisis, and the moving up in their efforts based on the threat.

 

[drt]

Why not both? To me, S31 retreats to the shadows, using obfuscation and official channels to accomplish purposes when not in the middle of a crisis, and the moving up in their efforts based on the threat.

They were sort of on the right track for that, with it being more out in the open in the 23rd century (DIZ S1-S2) and basically underground in the 24th (DS9), but then in S3 of Picard they have a giant space station/museum.

 

[fireproof78]

They were sort of on the right track for that, with it being more out in the open in the 23rd century (DIZ S1-S2) and basically underground in the 24th (DS9), but then in S3 of Picard they have a giant space station/museum.

Black ops site doesn't surprise me, especially after what they went through as part of the Dominion War, and possibly that Ross decided to expose them due to his extreme distaste for Sloan and his efforts.

 

[The Wormhole]

It's similar with Jeri Taylor's novel "Pathways." Taylor was, in essence, the DC Fontana of VOY. Surely her novels should be considered canon, no? Except, of course, all the instances where what was on screen contradicted the novel.

That's completely different. Pathways was contradicted after Jeri Taylor left Voyager, where the other writers simply viewed it as just another novel with the same canonical value as any other. However, at the time Taylor wrote Pathways, it was consistent with everything that was onscreen up to that point. Section 31's depiction in a novel being written by one of the writers who created the organization, reflects the actual intent of what Section 31 is supposed to be.

And if that's not enough, there are also comments from Kurtzman in which he admits Section 31 in Disco is intentionally depicted differently than it was on DS9.

 

[fireproof78]

Cool. It went all "I can neither confirm nor deny" style.

I like it.

Not to mention that recently I have been revisiting Red vs. Blue: Season 6-Reconstruction which deals with the idea of a rogue program that goes to whatever lengths possible to save it's civilization from annihilation. I can't help but think of Section 31 when I watch it and hear the Director of Project Freelancer's speech.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Oh nice point. Sloan could have been written as a bad egg in Starfleet Intelligence or that his particular division had gone rogue.

Yes, the original concept had that ambiguity as part of the premise. It was subsequent shows that got it wrong, with Section 31 being commonly known about and them having their own black badges.

In DS9 it was so secret that neither the audience or the characters are certain if it exists or if it is the delusions of one guy.

The intent in DS9 was that Section 31 was an illegal criminal conspiracy, not a legitimate government agency. STID and Disco were the ones who treated them like a legitimate agency.

Exactly.

It's established in DS9 "Inquisition" that Section 31 is in the Federation charter.

SLOAN: We don't submit reports or ask for approval for specific operations, if that's what you mean. We're an autonomous department.
BASHIR: Authorised by whom?
SLOAN: Section thirty one was part of the original Starfleet charter.
BASHIR: But that was two hundred years ago. Are you telling me you've been working on your own ever since? Without specific orders? Accountable to nobody but yourselves?
SLOAN: You make it sound so ominous.

Well... It's established that's what Sloan says.... The dude isn't exactly an unbiased source.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Oh, and on the thread's main topic: No, I don't believe Section 31 was involved with the events of "Jihad." The big conspiracy with Admiral Cartwright, Colonel West, and Valeris in Star Trek VI, sure (although they still wouldn't reveal that S31 was a thing to the Klingons and the Romulans), but I don't see it in this case.

 

[herofhyrule]

Well... It's established that's what Sloan says.... The dude isn't exactly an unbiased source.

But surely Bashir would just be able to pull up the text of the Starfleet Charter and confirm it for himself?