Jessie Gender's rewatch of DISCO and what we think

[mswood]

Jessie would comment on the parallels with Sisko as him being the first black Captain and not being allowed to be one (and in fact does) but the thing with Deep Space Nine was that it wasn't supposed to be anything other than a backwater assignment beneath his abilities. That obviously CHANGED with the Defiant and it becoming the focus of the Wormhole but it made sense to start him as a Commander then move him to Captain later.

Burnham not being a captain isn't demeaning. She just has the very Star Trek-esque lesson that it's not a good fit for her character.

Sisko wasn't a Captain because he commanded a Space Station. And no having the Defiant doesn't mean Sisko should be a Captain in rank. He should be addressed in that role as a Captain. But Trek ranking is based primarily off of US Navy ranks. And many, many ships are Captained by Commanders in Rank. Which is why Dax is stated as Captain, during the early parts of the sixth season, but still had the formal rank of Commander.

As for why the push to give Sisko a promotion was entirely based on fears that the public and the press would see him as lesser to Kirk, Picard and Janeway who all technically had the rank and position of Captain.

It was done for optics.

But the rank was always regardless of the race of the actor, set to be commander. And remember they did audition plenty of actors for the role who weren't darker skinned.

 

[fireproof78]

As for why the push to give Sisko a promotion was entirely based on fears that the public and the press would see him as lesser to Kirk, Picard and Janeway who all technically had the rank and position of Captain.

It was done for optics.

Which is the worst reason to promote someone.

 

[mswood]

Just pointing out that Multiple people of various races were considered for the role of Sisko. That command rank of command was set regardless on whom was cast. And it was based on how TNG (the era this was set in) handled the rank of Commander. We see more than one example in DS9 that the rank of Captain isn't required to be a captain. With both random guest star and with a two key cast members with Sisko and with Jadzia. Though again they are captains of the ship. They don't hold the rank of Captain.

The reason to finally do it wasn't based on a story or character arc (which ideally it should be), and the writers were planning to get him there eventually. I seem to recall there was an article about the leads of the four shows now that Voyager had started, and it irked Behr, to read what he saw was a bit of lack of respect for Sisko. So that convinced him to ask to, and that was the end of that. It probably also didn't help that with the very large push for Voyager he was probably feeling that DS9 was getting the short end of the stick in the press in general.

I will take this promotion reason (optics for someone who very likely was close to getting that rank anyway based on his performance), then how the JJverse promoted Kirk first from still a cadet to first officer, then to Captain at the end of the movie. Just all types of Yikes. Lt. with a fast track on command? Sure. Lt. Commander for a smaller ship? Sure. Captain of a capital ship.....Nope.

Of course on the opposite end we have Harry Kim.......

 

[fireproof78]

then how the JJverse promoted Kirk first from still a cadet to first officer, then to Captain at the end of the movie. Just all types of Yikes. Lt. with a fast track on command? Sure. Lt. Commander for a smaller ship? Sure. Captain of a capital ship.....Nope.

Lieutenant to first officer to captain.

Yes, he should have remained as executive officer at the end, or something of a montage showing various other adventures resulting in his quicker promotion. But, ID dealt with it well enough.

 

[mswood]

Fireproof78, when is Kirk referenced by the rank of Lt? Admittedly I am not super versed in JJverse as while I find them entertaining, it just doesn't resonate with me as much as the Prime universe (even with them being good general audience films).

Now George Kirk is a Lt, and assumes the Captaincy of the Kelvin. And does holding the rank of Lt, but the position of Captain.

But I can't find any reference to James T Kirk holding the rank of Lt.

The only thing I can see that even gets there is since Trek uses (for the basic stuff) the ranking system of the US Navy branch. Cadets would hold the rank of midshipmen. Once they graduate would typically get ranks as Ensigns, or LTs, and some Lt Cmdr (typically licensed physicians who join the Academy get that).

And when the cadets are ordered to ships, and are welcomed to Starfleet we then first hear that Uhura is a Lt. We then later see McCoy is of a Cmdr rank, and we see Sulu and Chekov with Lt and ensign ranks. Which does follow the US. And Kirk once cleared from cadet status would certainly get a Lt ranking. But he is never cleared for duty. Now Pike (following British Naval tradition, don't know about US), can grant an acting position for someone not already in service, conscription of able bodied men was fairly common at one time (which again for Kirk would be Lt very likely). But even the British tradition you would still need to formally get appointed that rank. For it to be official. And this is all supposition, based on assumptions. Not actual dialogue.

Now both Spock and Kirk assume the roles (not the rank) of First officer and Captain, and then Kirk Captain. But again still doesn't hold the rank.

Now technically once the mission is over, Pike should resume his position with his rank, Spock and Kirk would then reset back to their original ranking. Spock a Cmdr, and Kirk a cadet on suspension.

When we next see Kirk, back at the Academy everyone who was already in cadet uniforms is back in cadets uniform and Kirk is directly referenced by the rank of Captain, and told to report to service to replace Pike. Meaning Kirk doesn't hold a chair.

But no mention I can find of him ever being referenced as a Lt.

 

[fireproof78]

But no mention I can find of him ever being referenced as a Lt.

It's on a read out from the drop and transporter display.

Per US Navy regulations, a commanding officersy insert someone in to the chain of command to fill a position, and that person cannot be removed until relieved by that superior, or someone further up the chain, barring criminal activity.

Pike gives Kirk field status at lieutenant rank to serve as XO. In so doing, Kirk is now eligible to move up the Enterprise's chain of command, likely as a restricted line officer.

 

[mswood]

Cool again Kirk should be a Lt when he graduated. And we don't ever see that. I just couldn't see any dialogue about his actual rank.

I generally don't pay that much attention to displays because they often don't have accurate information. But I will absolutely take that as it does fit with what should happen. Still seems absolutely nuts to promote a field LT to be an actual Captain in rank (again when it's stated he isn't even serving as the position of Captain) at the end of the episode. But I wasn't a writer of that film.....

 

[Charles Phipps]

Yeah, I would have made Kirk into Pike's first officer.

In any case, my only complaint about Jessie's rewatch of DISCO is it's leaning a bit too heavily into fascism and anti-fascism when I feel like that obscures some other avenues. Yes, you can use fascism to describe religious fundamentalist theocracies and their partnership with fascists like we see with T'Kuvma but I feel like while the Mirror Universe and Lorca fit that mold, T'Kuvma and company don't.

It'll be interesting to also hear her thoughts on Season 2 and the normalizing of the surveillance state in the Federation with Section 31.

 

[Tiran O'Saurus]

In any case, my only complaint about Jessie's rewatch of DISCO is it's leaning a bit too heavily into fascism and anti-fascism when I feel like that obscures some other avenues. Yes, you can use fascism to describe religious fundamentalist theocracies and their partnership with fascists like we see with T'Kuvma but I feel like while the Mirror Universe and Lorca fit that mold, T'Kuvma and company don't.

Fascism is such a massive buzzword nowadays that it's completely lost all meaning.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Fascism is such a massive buzzword nowadays that it's completely lost all meaning.

Eh, it never had much of a meaning to begin with according to Umberto Eco who grew up in a fascist country. According to him, it's so hard to define because it is an emotion-driven political philosophy about militarism and tradition that certainly EXISTS but just really is whatever a conservative culture's most hardline values are taken to the extreme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism

Before she became a massive bigot, I used to use Harry Potter as an example of talking about it. Basically saying Voldemort's politics are fascist but they're not something he invented. He just took conservative Wizard Ones and turned them to the 11 so they became Far Right.

 

[fireproof78]

Still seems absolutely nuts to promote a field LT to be an actual Captain in rank (again when it's stated he isn't even serving as the position of Captain) at the end of the episode. But I wasn't a writer of that film.....

Which is fair and why ID is a good follow up, were the error is recognized.

 

[Tuskin38]

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[Tuskin38]

It'll be interesting to also hear her thoughts on Season 2 and the normalizing of the surveillance state in the Federation with Section 31.

Jessie has already done Season 2 reviews. The only reason they're revesting Season 1 now is because they never did a Season 1 review.

There's no playlist I can find, just try searching 'Jessie Gender Discovery Season 2' on youtube.
The reviews are on their main channel, not the after dark channel.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Thanks for the info.

Thoughts for her reviews on Season One overall:

1. A working definition of fascism included in her discussions would have benefited the reviews, I believe, as a lot of people use it without properly suggesting what they mean.
2. T'Kuvma's religious terrorist element feels like it could have been talked about more as the Federation feels compromised 9/11 style and it is very much a "back to the old ways" reaction ala the Taliban.
3. I feel like they were overall very positive but you could tell they had some issues with the handling of Voq, the one-dimensional-ness of Lorca post-reveal, and the skipping the Klingon War for most of the show.
4. I do feel like taking Season One in retrospect is interesting compared to when it was first coming out and we can compare it better to later seasons.
5. There's a lot of focus on the politics but less so on the character development in these reviews. I would have liked some more discussion of Burnham, Tilly, and Saru's personal relationships.

 

[NickolasDay]

I think Jessie Gender approaches her reviews with honesty and respect, although I sometimes disagree with her conclusions, but it adds interest to the discussion of various aspects of the Star Trek: Discovery series and provokes reflection on its meaning and relevance in the modern world.