Jessica Jones-- Marvel/Netflix

[The Old Mixer]

None of it was a deal-breaker for me story-wise, it just contributed to the perspective-breaking aspect of her divorce subplot.

Also, I was pleased with how Luke Cage was used...wasn't sure how much of it was from the comic, which I'm not familiar with first-hand, but they actually faked me out into thinking that...

Spoiler: Cage's role

...he might be the proverbial gun that didn't go off, so I was very pleased that Kilgrave did indeed realize the character's potential in the story as a mind-controlled minion to deal with Jessica.

I found one aspect of that revelation to be a bit vague, though...were they establishing that he'd been under Kilgrave's control from Episode 1? Kilgrave implied that with his dialogue, but they didn't get into much detail beyond that. I suppose that's credible in light of the tabs that Kilgrave had been keeping on Jessica at that point via Malcolm.

 

[Christopher]

Spoiler: Cage's role

I found one aspect of that revelation to be a bit vague, though...were they establishing that he'd been under Kilgrave's control from Episode 1? Kilgrave implied that with his dialogue, but they didn't get into much detail beyond that. I suppose that's credible in light of the tabs that Kilgrave had been keeping on Jessica at that point via Malcolm.

No, I think

Spoiler: reply

that Luke was only controlled from the point that he was reunited with Jessica in the last few episodes. It has to be; Jessica and Luke's romance is a key part of their storylines in the comics since Jessica was created, and the producers of the show wouldn't ruin that by making the whole thing a sham. So the relationship they built in the first half of the season was genuine. But Kilgrave got his hands on Luke sometime during Luke's absence.

 

[dahj]

Spoiler: spoiler

But Kilgrave got his hands on Luke sometime during Luke's absence.

Spoiler: spoiler

I'm pretty sure the story on how he got whammied is true even though he was still whammied while he was telling it.

 

[The Old Mixer]

But Kilgrave said something to the effect that...

Spoiler: Cage's role

...every moment Luke and Jessica had together had really been him. And the sex pretty much happened all in the early episodes, IIRC.

The little bit of exposition about Cage's confrontation with Kilgrave could have been a complete fabrication, since it was conspicuously related in second-hand flashback.

If he was under Kilgrave's control from Episode 1, that makes me wonder if he still blames Jessica, or if that was Kilgrave speaking when Cage said that he still blamed Jessica.

 

[Christopher]

But Kilgrave said something to the effect that...

Spoiler: Cage's role

...every moment Luke and Jessica had together had really been him. And the sex pretty much happened all in the early episodes, IIRC.

Spoiler: reply

I don't think he said it was every moment. He quoted a recent thing Luke had said and told Jessica that he'd written it.

And if he did say "every moment," I don't think he was talking about their early sexual interactions, but more about the deeper relationship they entered into after Luke's return. Before then, they weren't exactly a couple, just two people who hung out and had casual sex.

And I still say he can't have been under control from the start, because that would be narratively terrible. It would mean we haven't even met Luke Cage for real, and that would defeat the purpose of introducing him in this show before giving him his own. It would mean he has no real history or connection with Jessica, and that would be ruining one of the most beloved relationships in modern comics. It just can't be.

 

[dahj]

But Kilgrave said something to the effect that...

Spoiler: spoiler

He meant the forgiveness and reconnecting bits.

He was way to possessive and obsessed with her to allow her to fall for another guy.

Edit:

Spoiler: spoiler

Also, Kilgrave was locked in that tank for more than 24 hours so had he been whammied earlier it would have worn off during that time.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I see what you guys are saying, and...

Spoiler: Episode 12, ca. 45+ mins.

...Kilgrave's exposition about the time limit having expanded definitely points toward Cage only having been controlled in the later episodes. But then we get this from Kilgrave:

"Every move he made was mine. Those tender moments, those sweet things he shared, it was all me. It was our sexual tension. It was all me!"

Which implies that he'd been under Kilgrave's influence earlier on, when they were sexually active.

 

[dahj]

I see what you guys are saying, and...

Spoiler: Episode 12, ca. 45+ mins.

...Kilgrave's exposition about the time limit having expanded definitely points toward Cage only having been controlled in the later episodes. But then we get this from Kilgrave:

"Every move he made was mine. Those tender moments, those sweet things he shared, it was all me. It was our sexual tension. It was all me!"

Which implies that he'd been under Kilgrave's influence earlier on, when they were sexually active.

It doesn't, "tension" doesn't imply "activity".

In fact, tension is used most often when there's a distinct lack of activity.

 

[The Old Mixer]

It does...there was no qualifier, "...since such-and-such...".

Also, just entertaining my idea for the sake of argument, it adds a dark twist to the situation very befitting of the story that the show was telling...

Spoiler: Cage's role

...in that, if true, then when Jessica thought she was having consensual sex with Luke, in a sense she was being raped by Kilgrave by proxy.

 

[Rowan Sjet]

We see when Luke first met Kilgrave (charging up to woop his ass), and it's after he and Jessica know each other.

 

[Christopher]

It does...there was no qualifier, "...since such-and-such...".

Also, just entertaining my idea for the sake of argument, it adds a dark twist to the situation very befitting of the story that the show was telling...

Spoiler: Cage's role

...in that, if true, then when Jessica thought she was having consensual sex with Luke, in a sense she was being raped by Kilgrave by proxy.

You're taking Kilgrave's words way too literally. I mean, consider the source.

Spoiler: the source

Yes, he said "it was all me," but he was a classic gaslighter, a psychological abuser and manipulator. He would twist the truth and create his own self-serving narrative that he tried to impose -- like the way he argued that Jessica had genuinely cared for him and wanted to stay with him when she was actually disgusted and violated and eager to escape. Or the way he claimed that he'd never killed anyone, because of the loophole that he ordered them to kill themselves or each other. He was constantly twisting the facts to suit his warped version of reality.

So you can't take Kilgrave's spin on things as literal fact. He claimed "it was all me" because that played into his desired narrative that he and he alone was Jessica's true love. But that was a lie. The truth is that Jessica and Luke had something real, far more real than anything Kilgrave could force on her, and there was no way Kilgrave would admit to that. So he didn't talk about the part of their relationship when Luke wasn't under Kilgrave's control. He just pretended it never happened. But that was just one more of his self-serving distortions.

And the idea that Jessica's love scenes with Luke were her being "raped by proxy?" That the exciting and titillating love scenes were actually sexual assault happening before our eyes? No. God, no. That's disgusting. The showrunner has explicitly said that she chose not to depict rape onscreen, choosing to focus on the scars it leaves rather than going for titillation. So there is no way in hell that you are right about this.

 

[dahj]

You're taking Kilgrave's words way too literally.

If you've been Killgraved that tends to happen

 

[Thestral]

It does...there was no qualifier, "...since such-and-such...".

Also, just entertaining my idea for the sake of argument, it adds a dark twist to the situation very befitting of the story that the show was telling...

Spoiler: Cage's role

...in that, if true, then when Jessica thought she was having consensual sex with Luke, in a sense she was being raped by Kilgrave by proxy.

It's an extremely dark and twisted idea and I'm sure if Kilgrave had thought of it he would've gone there, but I don't think it's at all what happened - if for no other reason than

Spoiler: Cage

we wouldn't have met Luke at all by this point. The real Luke I mean.

Also, IF that had been what happened would that mean Luke was a rape victim as well?

My biggest question - well, my biggest niggling discontent, as it were - is how Luke actually feels towards Jessica as of the end of the show. We never see him and Jessica post-whammy, and it's not clear if his "Did you think I would ever forgive you?" was actually him (unlikely?) or just Kilgrave twisting the knife. I'm sure it'll be fine and hopefully Jess makes an appearance at least in his own show, but it did leave me wanting to see that worked out.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Krysten Ritter has been nominated for a Critics Choice Award-- Best Actress in a Drama Series.

Bravo! Well deserved.

 

[The Old Mixer]

We see when Luke first met Kilgrave (charging up to woop his ass), and it's after he and Jessica know each other.

IIRC, that was only related in second-hand flashback...so unreliable.

It does...there was no qualifier, "...since such-and-such...".

Also, just entertaining my idea for the sake of argument, it adds a dark twist to the situation very befitting of the story that the show was telling...

Spoiler: Cage's role

...in that, if true, then when Jessica thought she was having consensual sex with Luke, in a sense she was being raped by Kilgrave by proxy.

You're taking Kilgrave's words way too literally. I mean, consider the source.

Spoiler: the source

Yes, he said "it was all me," but he was a classic gaslighter, a psychological abuser and manipulator. He would twist the truth and create his own self-serving narrative that he tried to impose -- like the way he argued that Jessica had genuinely cared for him and wanted to stay with him when she was actually disgusted and violated and eager to escape. Or the way he claimed that he'd never killed anyone, because of the loophole that he ordered them to kill themselves or each other. He was constantly twisting the facts to suit his warped version of reality.

So you can't take Kilgrave's spin on things as literal fact. He claimed "it was all me" because that played into his desired narrative that he and he alone was Jessica's true love. But that was a lie. The truth is that Jessica and Luke had something real, far more real than anything Kilgrave could force on her, and there was no way Kilgrave would admit to that. So he didn't talk about the part of their relationship when Luke wasn't under Kilgrave's control. He just pretended it never happened. But that was just one more of his self-serving distortions.

And the idea that Jessica's love scenes with Luke were her being "raped by proxy?" That the exciting and titillating love scenes were actually sexual assault happening before our eyes? No. God, no. That's disgusting. The showrunner has explicitly said that she chose not to depict rape onscreen, choosing to focus on the scars it leaves rather than going for titillation. So there is no way in hell that you are right about this.

Putting things in context...the entire show was about the dark, twisted, disgusting, controlling things that the villain did, including offscreen rape. I don't appreciate the implication that I'm disgusting beyond words for thinking that this one further violation might have been intended in the story.

 

[Christopher]

Not that you're disgusting, just that what you're proposing would have been disgusting had it actually been done in the show -- which it absolutely, emphatically was not. You've misread the entire series if you could possibly believe that was what Melissa Rosenberg intended -- or that Kilgrave's professed view of events is an accurate account of the truth.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Somehow more disgusting than everything else that Kilgrave was depicted as doing throughout the series? Whether or not it was the writer's intent, it's not exactly stretching things for that character.

 

[Commander Richard]

All I know is Luke is a lucky guy.

And congrats to Ritter for the nomination.

 

[Thestral]

^^ Indeed. "Rape is a special kind of evil" I know, but would that particular whammy really have been worse than

Spoiler: Kilgrave's work

having Ruben cut his own throat? Or having his mother stab herself to death? Or having the support group hang themselves? Or having Hogarth literally suffer a death by 1,000 cuts? Or, for that matter, having Luke say he forgives Jessica of the greatest guilt she carried?

 

[Christopher]

Somehow more disgusting than everything else that Kilgrave was depicted as doing throughout the series? Whether or not it was the writer's intent, it's not exactly stretching things for that character.

Read the link. Rosenberg explicitly said she would not do what you're suggesting. And there's no "somehow" about it. There's a fundamental and very profound difference between showing the aftermath and recovery from rape and showing the rape itself onscreen in a context that appears romantic or titillating. The latter is prurient and exploitative.

And it's not just Kilgrave's character that's at issue here. As I've already explained, it's Luke's too. Luke Cage, the star of the next series in the sequence. There is no way in hell they would introduce that character here and never let him be his true self. It's a terrible idea.