Jerry Lawton Ridicules Adult Gamers

[Rii]

However, this seems to have done nothing to curb Lawton's desire to ridicule [...] the culture of gaming.

I fail to see the problem.

Ok, I'll bite; so you think what he did was perfectly fine?

Err, no. I'm saying gaming culture deserves to be ridiculed. It's a multi-billion dollar industry catering to male adolescent power fantasies and indulging sociopathic, misogynistic and aggressive behaviour. There is nothing 'adult' about the kinds of video games which define the industry in the minds of the public: CoD, Halo, GTA, etc. The ESRB 'mature' tag is like a cruel joke.

If video games want to be taken seriously as an art form, they're probably going to have to start by growing the fuck up.

 

[Hermiod]

Or, more, accurately, everyone in the world who doesn't play video games like the ones you mention needs to grow up.

There's already three multi-billion dollar industries that cater to women's fantasies. Funny how it's the one aimed at men that needs to grow up.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I fail to see the problem.

Ok, I'll bite; so you think what he did was perfectly fine?

Err, no. I'm saying gaming culture deserves to be ridiculed. It's a multi-billion dollar industry catering to male adolescent power fantasies and indulging sociopathic, misogynistic and aggressive behaviour. There is nothing 'adult' about the kinds of video games which define the industry in the minds of the public: CoD, Halo, GTA, etc. The ESRB 'mature' tag is like a cruel joke.

If video games want to be taken seriously as an art form, they're probably going to have to start by growing the fuck up.

How exactly are CoD and Halo misogynist? I can see GTA but that depends entirely on the player and not specifically the game. There are plenty of different genres of games, yes there are sick games with twisted sections, but the same can be said of film and literature so what difference does that make?

 

[Servo]

I fail to see the problem.

Ok, I'll bite; so you think what he did was perfectly fine?

Err, no. I'm saying gaming culture deserves to be ridiculed. It's a multi-billion dollar industry catering to male adolescent power fantasies and indulging sociopathic, misogynistic and aggressive behaviour. There is nothing 'adult' about the kinds of video games which define the industry in the minds of the public: CoD, Halo, GTA, etc. The ESRB 'mature' tag is like a cruel joke.

If video games want to be taken seriously as an art form, they're probably going to have to start by growing the fuck up.

Even if I agreed with any of that rant, it's absolutely irrelevant to the point at hand. It's not like Jerry Lawton wrote an in-depth critique of the gaming industry, and made those points in a reasoned way. He made up a load of bullshit, and then blamed the people who called him on it, and acted like they were the ones in the wrong.

He didn't do this to make a point, or to raise the issue of game content, he did it because he thought the games industry was a soft target, and when he was caught out, he lashed out like a little kid, blaming everyone but himself.
That would have been bad enough had he just been some idiot on a message board, but the fact that he's a national journalist makes it even worse.

I'm sorry that, in your rush to give us all your opinion on the games industry, you seem to have missed the point entirely, Rii.

 

[Rii]

There's already three multi-billion dollar industries that cater to women's fantasies.

Orly?

Incidentally, I'm slowly working my through Replay: The History of Videogames at the moment and collecting a wealth of interesting anecdotes in the process. Of relevance here, Pac-Man was designed as a female-friendly game to bring balance to the male dominated arcades in Japan. The drive to create a game that would appeal to women preceded the concept for Pac-Man itself. In thinking about how to make such a game, the (male) designer thought about things that women liked to do and came up with 'eating'. And thus, Pac-Man was born.

How exactly are CoD and Halo misogynist?

I wouldn't say they were.

There are plenty of different genres of games, yes there are sick games with twisted sections, but the same can be said of film and literature so what difference does that make?

The difference is that adolescent power fantasies don't dominate film, literature, music, etc. as they do games. And that's not because games are intrinsically more appealing to adolescent and young adult males, rather it reflects the technical origins of the field and the resulting relative homogeneity of game developers, i.e. nerds, with all the alienation, resentment, fear and deflected agression that implies.

There's certainly a place for games of all kinds as there is with film - I enjoyed Sin City and would've enjoyed 300 if it weren't for some niggling issues unrelated to its machismo quotient - but when you can file a goodly proportion of all high-profile games under that kind of banner, well, it's foolish to pretend that we're not looking at a seriously skewed art form here.

Games will be considered to be 'for children' so long as they continue to be worthy of that moniker. And they're in no danger of losing it.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I'd say a lot of games compare to Action movies and popcorn flicks. With a smattering of Horror, fantasy or sci-fi thrown in, and the occasional art house film. I'd say it compares very well with film in that regard.

 

[Hermiod]

There's already three multi-billion dollar industries that cater to women's fantasies.

Orly?

Yes - ever heard of Television, Literature and Music ?

The fundamental problem with your argument is that it is based on the idea that male interest = bad. That everything male must be made more female in order to be acceptable.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

There's already three multi-billion dollar industries that cater to women's fantasies.

Orly?

Yes - ever heard of Television, Literature and Music ?

The fundamental problem with your argument is that it is based on the idea that male interest = bad.

I'd say the fundamental problem with the argument is that it's bullshit.

 

[Hermiod]

I'd say the fundamental problem with the argument is that it's bullshit.

Well, that too.

 

[Rii]

There's already three multi-billion dollar industries that cater to women's fantasies.

Orly?

Yes - ever heard of Television, Literature and Music?

None of which are dominated by women in the way that games are dominated by men.

The fundamental problem with your argument is that it is based on the idea that male interest = bad.

Of course it isn't.

It seems to be your argument that games are intrinsically a male-dominated art form rather than that situation arising through the confluence of a variety of factors (technical, cultural, etc.) that can, have and will continue to change over time. Would you also suggest that film is intrinsically an upper-middle and upper class caucasian medium because film through till around the 1960s was dominated by product concerning that social strata? Or was the peculiar inference that seemingly everyone in 1950s New York wore a suit and owned their own business rather a function of the fact that, at the time, such were the kinds of people who (1) made films and (2) paid to see them?

 

[captcalhoun]

Orly?

Yes - ever heard of Television, Literature and Music ?

The fundamental problem with your argument is that it is based on the idea that male interest = bad.

I'd say the fundamental problem with the argument is that it's bullshit.

 

[Servo]

I like how Rii is completely ignoring my reply to a dialogue he started. Makes me feel like I won.

 

[Hermiod]

None of which are dominated by women in the way that games are dominated by men.

Have a quick skim through a British television listings magazine and say that again. Or look at the Amazon bestsellers list or the top 40 singles.

On the contrary, it seems to be your argument that games are intrinsically a male-dominated art form rather than that situation arising through the confluence of a variety of factors (technical, cultural, etc.) that can, have and will continue to change over time. Would you also suggest that film is intrinsically an upper-middle class caucasian medium because film through till around the 1960s was dominated by product concerning that social strata?

I'm saying that right now, EA, Microsoft, Sony, Ubisoft, Take 2 and Activision make a lot of money out of us male gamers by making games that appeal to our 'male power fantasies'.

At the same time, you have a growing industry catering for female interest games. They're just very different markets. Those games tend to be shorter, quicker and easier to pick up and play, and cheaper or even free while male interest games require a longer term investment of time and energy, and reward the player for it - the CoD rank system, for instance.

There doesn't have to be a happy medium. The two things can happily co-exist and even mix - Valve's statistics on Left 4 Dead showed a very surprising number of all-girl teams playing the game. They enjoyed the teamwork aspect for the game, despite the fact that the purpose of it is to slaughter zombies in a very bloody, violent fashion.

Suggesting however, that games need to stop catering for our 'male power fantasies' shows up a very gynocentric view of the world.

 

[Rii]

^ Have to sleep now. I'll come back to this.

 

[Rii]

I'm saying that right now, EA, Microsoft, Sony, Ubisoft, Take 2 and Activision make a lot of money out of us male gamers by making games that appeal to our 'male power fantasies'.

Porn makes a lot of money too, it doesn't translate to respectability. If games are content to occupy the same cultural niche as comic books that's one thing, but if the medium aspires to be taken as seriously as film, literature and music then it has a long road ahead of it and, yes, a lot of growing up to do. And I think it'll get there.

At the same time, you have a growing industry catering for female interest games. They're just very different markets. Those games tend to be shorter, quicker and easier to pick up and play, and cheaper or even free while male interest games require a longer term investment of time and energy, and reward the player for it - the CoD rank system, for instance.

Is it that such titles are intrinsically less appealing to women, or is it that 'casual' games tend to be more approachable to those not already inculcated into the art form? After all, males started off playing short arcade games too.

Suggesting however, that games need to stop catering for our 'male power fantasies' shows up a very gynocentric view of the world.

I'm talking about 'the industry' as a whole, not specific developers or wrt specific games, and I'd wholeheartedly oppose attempts to impose an external agenda - demographic, ideological, etc. - at that creative level.

Personally, I very much welcome the decline of so-called 'AAA' games in favour of a greater emphasis on highly polished yet more restrained efforts. Trine, Braid, Flower, Portal and Plants vs. Zombies are five poster children for the direction I'd like to see the industry move in. And I think it will. And that transition will aid the development of, well, demographically riskier games.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

^The "Big Name" producers, Will Wright, Peter Molyneux, etc. have talked at length about the sort of direction they would like games to take and there's some very interesting ideas. I'm personally a little sick of shooter and God of War style games and look forward to Portal 2 more than any of the Gears of War/CoD/KillZone etc sequels. Not because I don't like shooters, but because they're the market is swamped with these games and they're all so bloody generic nowadays. I want something different, but you can't fault businesses for making stuff that sells.

 

[Hermiod]

Porn makes a lot of money too, it doesn't translate to respectability. If games are content to occupy the same cultural niche as comic books, i.e. for (largely male) kids/nerds that's one thing, but if the medium aspires to be taken as seriously as film, literature and music then it has a long road ahead of it and, yes, a lot of growing up to do.

Again, I believe it's the other entertainment industries that need to 'grow up'. Games accept people for who they are, it's not games that tell people that how they live their lives is 'wrong'.

It's not up to the video game industry to live up to arbitrary standards of maturity set by people who've never picked up a controller in their lives.

Somewhere along the line, the film, TV and music industries forgot that entertainment was supposed to be entertaining. Now, male gamers are taking all that disposable income they used to spend on DVDs and CDs and spending it on video games. So, instead of getting their own house in order they blast video games by creating this gamer stereotype. So they invent false stories - Mass Effect lets you rape women! Grand Theft Auto is a murder simulator! Modern Warfare 2 encourages terrorism!

Given just how popular video games are, if we were all basement dwelling nerds to the extent the media suggests the entire western world would be in serious danger of massiv, imminent population decline.

Is it that such titles are intrinsically less appealing to women, or is it that 'casual' games tend to be more approachable to those not already inculcated into the art form? After all, males started off playing short arcade games too.

Sure, but as I keep having to say, it's okay to make something that doesn't appeal to women. It's okay to be male and have male interests. It doesn't matter if they're not interested. I'm not interested in romance novels, soap operas or shoes, either.

I'm male. I have 'male power fantasies' and I act them out through video games. I enjoy being the action hero. I enjoy saving Earth from the Covenant. I enjoy stopping the Russian Ultra-Nationalists. I enjoy bringing back my entire team alive from the Collector base and killing Reapers. And I damned well enjoy making the Combine pay for their atrocities. All of the games I'm referring to were far more entertaining to me than any movie or television show I've seen in years.

In short, I'm not going to tolerate anyone who says a man should feel bad about himself for being masculine and enjoying masculine entertainment.

I'm talking about 'the industry' as a whole, not specific developers or wrt specific games, and I'd wholeheartedly oppose attempts to impose an external agenda - demographic, ideological, etc. - at that creative level.

Except where you are doing just that...

Personally, I very much welcome the decline of so-called 'AAA' games in favour of a greater emphasis on highly polished yet more restrained efforts. Trine, Braid, Flower, Portal and Plants vs. Zombies are five poster children for the direction I'd like to see the industry move in. And I think it will. And that transition will aid the development of, well, demographically riskier games.

Those games don't have to replace anything. With the exception of Portal, none of those games have as much of a right to call themselves 'art' as Half-Life 2, anyway.

 

[Rii]

It's not up to the video game industry to live up to arbitrary standards of maturity set by people who've never picked up a controller in their lives.

You can enjoy comics or not, but what you can't deny is that the art form has a public image inspired both by the predominant content of the medium and its audience. You may not care about that image, but it's certainly there. The same is true of games.

Somewhere along the line, the film, TV and music industries forgot that entertainment was supposed to be entertaining.

Nah.

So, instead of getting their own house in order they blast video games by creating this gamer stereotype. So they invent false stories - Mass Effect lets you rape women! Grand Theft Auto is a murder simulator! Modern Warfare 2 encourages terrorism!

I think you're conflating things a bit. That kind of ignorance-driven reporting is just de riguer sensationalism catering to the audience. That doesn't make it any less objectionable, but I don't think it's part of an orchestrated campaign against videogames.

Sure, but as I keep having to say, it's okay to make something that doesn't appeal to women. It's okay to be male and have male interests. It doesn't matter if they're not interested. I'm not interested in romance novels, soap operas or shoes, either.

I'm male. I have 'male power fantasies' and I act them out through video games. I enjoy being the action hero. I enjoy saving Earth from the Covenant. I enjoy stopping the Russian Ultra-Nationalists. I enjoy bringing back my entire team alive from the Collector base and killing Reapers. And I damned well enjoy making the Combine pay for their atrocities. All of the games I'm referring to were far more entertaining to me than any movie or television show I've seen in years.

In short, I'm not going to tolerate anyone who says a man should feel bad about himself for being masculine and enjoying masculine entertainment.

I think this world would probably be a better place sans-'masulinity', but that's neither here nor there wrt entertainment. I don't disagree with any of the above; indeed earlier I noted my own predilections for such media.

I'm talking about 'the industry' as a whole, not specific developers or wrt specific games, and I'd wholeheartedly oppose attempts to impose an external agenda - demographic, ideological, etc. - at that creative level.

Except where you are doing just that...

Nope; clearly we're having a communication problem here.

Those games don't have to replace anything.

Not directly, but in proliferating they diminish the shadow that the CoDs/Halos/GTAs of this world cast over the medium. When male power fantasies are merely some amongst many, rather than the form's dominant genre (as with superheroes and comic books) that's when we'll know that gaming is ready to sit at the big kids table.

And yeah, I actually think it'll happen, so I'm not pushing for a 'plan of action' or anything, it's far too slow and complex an evolution for that. But a few decades from now when the 'game studies' classes start up at universities, it won't be CoD that they're looking at.

 

[Hermiod]

You can enjoy comics or not, but what you can't deny is that the art form has a public image inspired both by the predominant content of the medium and its audience. You may not care about that image, but it's certainly there. The same is true of games.

The image exists. Whether we choose to give it a negative connotation is up to us. Comics suffer just as much as games here, they're seen as a male-interest art form and male-interest = bad.

If you say otherwise you're just defending patriarchy or you hate women or something.

I think this world would probably be a better place sans-'masulinity', but that's neither here nor there wrt entertainment. I don't disagree with any of the above; indeed earlier I noted my own predilections for such media.

No, it is both here and there. A long time ago someone committed the greatest slander against men in history.

Somewhere along the line we all agreed like good little sheep that the feminine was good and the masculine was bad. We chose to write off everything that men contribute to society as being replaceable and unnecessary and everything that men enjoy and women don't as being 'wrong'.

If only we'd look at the things women enjoy that exclude men and hold them up to the same scrutiny we'd find that those things speak worse of men than the things we men enjoy do of women.

 

[Mistral]

The video game genre is undergoing a phase change right now with the exploding popularity of "social games" like the Facebook stuff, Farmville, Cafe World, et al. Women make up the majority of players and the % of women who represent themselves as game players is trending upward. My 60+ yr-old mother is a gamer, playing Farmville and Bejeweled with a passion. While FPSs are male-dominated the overall field of gaming is becoming an "everybody does it" activity. I suspect the percentages will hit a balanced middle ground in the next few years and pretty much stay there as a societal trend. The only major changes will be on the game types themselves as demographics shift to account for the female players.