Jennifer Lien

[Lynx]

He develops, but the essence of what he is (a highly sophisticated computer program) doesn't change. I think that for some people, having Kes gain an extended lifespan wouldn't be developing her, it would just be eliminating what made her different. Like the Doctor becoming human, or Seven losing her Borg implants.

I understand this sentiment, though I feel that extending Kes's life could be done, if handled right. After all, Voyager changed its premises of deprivation and intra-crew animosities, why not this one as well?

But no one protested when Spock was brought back to life in the Star Trek movie The Search For Spock which was far more over the top than a prolonged lifespan for Kes.

The same with Kim being killed and replaced by a duplicate Kim.

But Kes became a non-corporeal entity in 'The Gift'? Then again, that seems to have been thrown out with the later episode, 'Fury'.

Which actually confirms my comments above. When it came to destroying the character, there were no barriers or obstacles which couldn't be moved or simply forgotten by those in charge.

Tannis. a sexy boy Ocampa, who lived with Susperia the female Caretaker, could go back and forth between realms too.

The problem was that Kes could be non corporeal, and possibly immortal, so long as she stayed non corporeal, but when Kes got to energy vapour heaven, it was empty so she got lonely.

Then she went home to Ocampa and they treated her like an asshole, so she bugged out.

She could have taught them how to get to energy vapour heaven but they treated her like an asshole, so she didn't?

By the time she went senile space crazy in Fury either Kes could alter perception so that she seemed 6 years younger, or she could manipulate matter/reality and Kes was actually yet magically 6 years younger, which means that she is only as old as she wants to be, in the physical realm... But by the end of Fury Kes turned back into an 8 year old, either because her younger appearance was an illusion, or because when push comes to shove if she did get younger, Kes likes to look her true age.

Tanis a "sexy boy Ocampa"?

Anyway, if I remember the s**t episode in season 6 correctly, "Kes" didn't go to Ocampa until it decide to do so at the end of the episode so it can hardly have been "treated like an asshole" before that.

But I can understand that this totally illogical, pathetic excuse for a Star Trek episode confuses you.

 

[Captrek]

But no one protested when Spock was brought back to life in the Star trek movie The Search For Spock which was far more over the top than a prolonged lifespan for Kes.

No one except Nicholas Meyer.

 

[gweeps]

The same with Kim being killed and replaced by a duplicate Kim.

While discussing the episode on their podcast, The Delta Flyers, McNeill and Wang figured, yes, that Kim was a replacement for the one who died but not the duplicate. He comes from the Voyager that sent the pulse (or whatever), so even though it's nitpicky, I agree that the original Voyager was the one that sent the pulse first.

 

[gweeps]

No one except Nicholas Meyer.

I understand his frustration though. STIII kinda invalidates the emotion you feel at the end of II.

 

[fireproof78]

But no one protested when Spock was brought back to life in the Star Trek movie The Search For Spock which was far more over the top than a prolonged lifespan for Kes.

No one except Nicholas Meyer.

I believe Nimoy had his objections too. And that the edit was done without his knowledge. Could be misremembering though.

 

[Oddish]

Which actually confirms my comments above. When it came to destroying the character, there were no barries or obstacles which couldn't be moved or simply forgotten by those in charge.

You just sometimes wonder what the hell they were thinking.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But no one protested when Spock was brought back to life in the Star Trek movie The Search For Spock which was far more over the top than a prolonged lifespan for Kes.

The same with Kim being killed and replaced by a duplicate Kim.



Which actually confirms my comments above. When it came to destroying the character, there were no barriers or obstacles which couldn't be moved or simply forgotten by those in charge.



Tanis a "sexy boy Ocampa"?

Anyway, if I remember the s**t episode in season 6 correctly, "Kes" didn't go to Ocampa until it decide to do so at the end of the episode so it can hardly have been "treated like an asshole" before that.

But I can understand that this totally illogical, pathetic excuse for a Star Trek episode confuses you.

KES: In three years, I'm going to leave Voyager in search of higher things because you encouraged me to do it. You encouraged me to develop my mental abilities. I wasn't ready for what I found. I couldn't control it. It scared me. I had nowhere to go. I thought of returning home to Ocampa, but I'd changed too much. I knew they'd be frightened of me. I knew they wouldn't accept me, but they'll accept her.

They didn't treat her like an asshole, she just anticipated that they would treat her like an asshole because she knew that they would treat her like an asshole because they are small and provincial.

My bad.

 

[Lynx]

Not having Kes' lifespan prolonged doesn't mean she doesn't get developed.

Had she been kept around, she could have gotten more development. Of course, we never got that.

I feel like when they created the 9 year lifespan for Kes, the creators were thinking of the phrase 'the brightest candles burn out faster'. Or "Only the Good Die Young", if they like Billy Joel.

Having a short life, the writers could have really turned that into an exploration of what it means to have the whole galaxy to explore, but only a fraction of time to do it. She was clearly curious and a natural born explorer, which is one of the reasons why she fit in with the crew so easily.


Regarding The Doctor, I think considerable leeway was given to Picardo, who proved time and time again that he was one of THE strongest actors there. He's one of the only actors who got to keep a couple ad-lib lines in an episode. (Like his neck being a simulation to EMH-2 in "MESSAGE IN A BOTTLE".) Damn near no one got to do that, and this is from TNG all the way to ENTERPRISE.

But development could be created and showed up in a better way than turning it into some death-infested doom-and-gloom drama.

As for your comment about the Billy Joel song, maybe it should have been changed to "Only the good die Young, while the evil seems to live forever" from the Iron Maiden Song "Only The Good Die Young", at least when it comes to what we discuss here.

And when you mention the "creators" of Voyager, it reminds me of the Deep Purple song "No, No, No" and the lyrics "They talk about creation, but all they do is kill".

As for your comments about Picardo, you have a point there. His character in Stargate, Mr Woolsley had a similar development as The Doctor, from just an agent of the National Intelligence department to the leader of the whole Atlantis Expedition.

You just sometimes wonder what the hell they were thinking.

Sometimes I wonder if they were thinking at all.

They didn't treat her like an asshole, she just anticipated that they would treat her like an asshole because she knew that they would treat her like an asshole because they are small and provincial.

My bad.

No problem. That pathetic excuse for a Star Trek episode is so messed up and full of contradictions that it is impossible to think logic while discussing it.

 

[Farscape One]

But it did at least explain Wildman's ridiculously long pregnancy.

The only saving grace of "FURY". And the teaser with Tuvok's birthday.

 

[Oddish]

Sometimes I wonder if they were thinking at all.

Good point.

No problem. That pathetic excuse for a Star Trek episode is so messed up and full of contradictions that it is impossible to think logic while discussing it.

Agreed. If they were going to remove Kes from the show, they should have let "The Gift" be the end of it.

As for your comment about the Billy Joel song, maybe it should have been changed to "Only the good die Young, while the evil seems to live forever" from the Iron Maiden Song "Only The Good Die Young", at least when it comes to what we discuss here.

The gist I get from the Billy Joel song is of a horny teenage boy who's trying to convince an attractive but religiously conservative girl to drop her panties for him. Doesn't really jibe with Kes's situation.

 

[Lynx]

Agreed. If they were going to remove Kes from the show, they should have let "The Gift" be the end of it.

Or even better, they should have scrapped the badly written The Gift with its energy-being mumbo-jumbo and let her leave with Zahir in Darkling. If they really had to dump her which I don't think they should have done.

The gist I get from the Billy Joel song is of a horny teenage boy who's trying to convince an attractive but religiously conservative girl to drop her panties for him. Doesn't really jibe with Kes's situation.

I haven't heard that song but due to your description of the lyrics, it doesn't seem compatible to Kes's situation.

In that case "Only The Good Die Young" by Iron Maiden is a better choice.

The lyrics "Only the good die young while the evil seems to live forever" fits both Kes and the "gods" who removed her from the Star Trek Universe in the worst possible way.

 

[Lynx]

But it did at least explain Wildman's ridiculously long pregnancy.

The only saving grace of "FURY". And the teaser with Tuvok's birthday.

Nothing saves that episode.

The examples you bring up could and should have occurred in some other episode between the birth of Naomi and Endgame.

 

[Oddish]

Or even better, they should have scrapped the badly written The Gift with its energy-being mumbo-jumbo and let her leave with Zahir in Darkling. If they really had to dump her which I don't think they should have done.

No, like I said: DS9 juggled 25 characters at its end. VOY could have handled 10. Maybe a few more, if they did character development right, which they sadly didn't.

I also still maintain that the "Beautiful People" story was probably not entirely true... "Before and After" felt to me like they were condensing the original plan for Kes's life into one episode, because they weren't going to play it out for real. And because it was one episode, they could do things that were more "out there" than would have worked in the series proper (like Harry and Linnis).

Nothing saves that episode.

Sounds like me and "Half a Life".

 

[Lynx]

Sounds like me and "Half a Life".

An episode I often skip when I rewatch TNG.
The writers really took the easy way out there.
The poor man should have showed the "finger" to the authorities on his homeworld and been granted asylum in the Federation.

 

[Oddish]

The poor man should have showed the "finger" to the authorities on his homeworld and been granted asylum in the Federation.

Darn right. Involuntary termination of "defectives" was the way the Nazi holocaust began. It makes me sick that Trek actually gives their tacit acceptance of such a thing.

 

[Tracy Trek]

Darn right. Involuntary termination of "defectives" was the way the Nazi holocaust began. It makes me sick that Trek actually gives their tacit acceptance of such a thing.

Makes me think that world just doomed itself by forcing one of the scientists working on the coming disaster commit suicide.

 

[Oddish]

Makes me think that world just doomed itself by forcing one of the scientists working on the coming disaster commit suicide.

That would be horrific... but there's an element of poetic justice in it, too.

 

[Lynx]

Darn right. Involuntary termination of "defectives" was the way the Nazi holocaust began. It makes me sick that Trek actually gives their tacit acceptance of such a thing.

The situation was almost the same in Emanations, the worst and most boring episode in the early seasons of Voyager.

 

[suarezguy]

Would it have been a good development for Kes if in season 3 and/or 4 and staying she had become more of the ship's unofficial, or even all-but-official, counselor?

 

[Oddish]

Or put even on a blue uniform and made it official.