Jenna is Going

[Timewalker]

I'm still not understanding this. Jamie's immediate replacement as a companion was Liz Shaw. I hope the suggestion wasn't that Jamie's 21st-century descendant become a companion, because I am utterly sick and tired of modern-era companions.

Well, it's not my comment, but I took it to mean that what he was saying was that if Jamie's immediate replacement had been his son (rather than Liz), that would be corny. But the fact that he would be joining the show decades later, with many replacement companions having come and gone in the interim, would stop it being corny.

Obviously this hypothetical son isn't Jamie's immediate replacement, nobody is advocating time-travel for real to replace Liz in the old show! (I hope!)

Ah, that makes sense now.

I am utterly sick and tired of modern-era companions.

And I still don't understand that. It seems to me that, if fans had their way, the Doctor would travel with a knight of the round table, a Time Lord and a Kroton.

Well, there was a time when he traveled with a Time Lady, a teenage Alzarian male, and a robot dog (Romana, Adric, and K-9).

Please understand that those of us who started watching during the Classic era are used to an eclectic mix of companions - male, female, human, alien, modern, from the future, and from the past. The nuWho companions have been too much alike and interchangeable.

You ever wonder if Jamie wasn't absolutely slutted that every time he ran across London in the future that it wasn't a rubble strewn warzone dominated under a Scottish Flag?

If The Doctor and Jamie met an English Monarch... Would he go for his/her throat?

We knew him as a nice bloke, but he grew up killing Red Coats by the bushel and by the pound.

It would be interesting to see what kind of man Jamie became after leaving the Doctor, since the Time Lords wiped his memories of traveling with the Doctor (except for the one adventure where they met) and dumped him back in the Battle of Culloden.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Please understand that those of us who started watching during the Classic era are used to an eclectic mix of companions - male, female, human, alien, modern, from the future, and from the past. The nuWho companions have been too much alike and interchangeable.

My first Doctor was the fourth, so yes, I understand that there were all kinds of companions in the past, but no, I don't agree that the companions of the last couple of series have been interchangeable, far from it in fact, and in my opinion most of the more exotic companions in the show's history have either been used exactly as if they came from the modern era (Vicki, Jamie, Victoria) or they were complete failures as characters (Adric, Ace, Nyssa).

A show about an alien travelling with another alien to an alien world is not something I'm very interested in watching. Doctor Who has always danced a little dance between the mundane and the otherworldly, and in my opinion using the companion as the point-of-view character is absolutely essential.

 

[Starkers]

Ace a failure? Actually I think calling Adric and Nyssa failures is a stretch. I haven't seen enough Vivki and Victoria to comment but Jamie wasn't treated as if he came from the modern era. He might not have been as utterly future shocked by everything he saw as perhaps he might have been, but he didn't suddenly start acting like it was the swinging 60s.

Factor in Zoe, Leela, both Romanas and Turlough as well, all of whom were good companions all of whom managed to be alien (except Zoe who was obviously human)

I don't need the point of view character to be exactly like me to relate to them, and if I did that would mean the only companion to come close in the new series was Rory.

 

[Timewalker]

Please understand that those of us who started watching during the Classic era are used to an eclectic mix of companions - male, female, human, alien, modern, from the future, and from the past. The nuWho companions have been too much alike and interchangeable.

My first Doctor was the fourth, so yes, I understand that there were all kinds of companions in the past, but no, I don't agree that the companions of the last couple of series have been interchangeable, far from it in fact, and in my opinion most of the more exotic companions in the show's history have either been used exactly as if they came from the modern era (Vicki, Jamie, Victoria) or they were complete failures as characters (Adric, Ace, Nyssa).

A show about an alien travelling with another alien to an alien world is not something I'm very interested in watching. Doctor Who has always danced a little dance between the mundane and the otherworldly, and in my opinion using the companion as the point-of-view character is absolutely essential.

I don't think Adric was a failure as a companion or as a character in general. Too many people see him as an obnoxious teenager who happened to be a mathematical genius - in short, the Whovian equivalent of Wesley Crusher, albeit many years before Wesley Crusher existed as part of Star Trek. Adric was the classic outsider kid who wanted to fit in somewhere. He didn't feel he fit in with his own people, so he stowed away in the TARDIS. His help was essential in some of the adventures, and he ultimately gave his life in an attempt to save Earth. I wouldn't call that a failure.

I'll agree with you regarding Ace. I thought her backstory was stupid, and when the storylines started digging into her past and her psyche, that's when the Seventh Doctor got boring for me. I didn't like Ace, didn't give a damn about her family, her past, or anything else about her.

Nyssa was just... taking up space, as far as I'm concerned. She and Adric became friends on Traken and she did help out in a couple of stories. And I know it was the costume department that put her in those increasingly ridiculous outfits, but at the end I just had to wonder what the in-universe character was thinking.

Interchangeable modern companions... far too many stories wouldn't have been much different if there had been a different companion. Forpetessake, Clara and Rose's families live in the same apartment building!

Of course the companion as the point-of-view character is essential. But what disqualifies an alien, past-time, or future-time character from filling that role?

 

[DWF]

Please understand that those of us who started watching during the Classic era are used to an eclectic mix of companions - male, female, human, alien, modern, from the future, and from the past. The nuWho companions have been too much alike and interchangeable.

My first Doctor was the fourth, so yes, I understand that there were all kinds of companions in the past, but no, I don't agree that the companions of the last couple of series have been interchangeable, far from it in fact, and in my opinion most of the more exotic companions in the show's history have either been used exactly as if they came from the modern era (Vicki, Jamie, Victoria) or they were complete failures as characters (Adric, Ace, Nyssa).

A show about an alien travelling with another alien to an alien world is not something I'm very interested in watching. Doctor Who has always danced a little dance between the mundane and the otherworldly, and in my opinion using the companion as the point-of-view character is absolutely essential.

I don't think Adric was a failure as a companion or as a character in general. Too many people see him as an obnoxious teenager who happened to be a mathematical genius - in short, the Whovian equivalent of Wesley Crusher, albeit many years before Wesley Crusher existed as part of Star Trek.

I don't see Adric as a failure either but niether Adric nor Matthew Waterhouse were that well liked.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Kingston and Barry are standing within 5 feet of each other.

BBCA can send a film crew up to Canada,.. isn't orphan Black filmed in Canada? So, fuck it, they all ready have a film crew with in an hours drive, and then John and Alex can bring half the cast of Arrow with them as extras and cameo squee to make the audience have a terminal nerdgasm, and they're set.

Seriously.

Maybe you fly Capaldi aross, and maybe you don't.

Couldn't Jack and River just have a Doctorless adventure?

She's not a regular on Arrow, so I doubt she's spending a lot of time in Canada.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Ace a failure?

I've always felt that she was more a collection of unrelated character quirks and catchprases than a genuine character with a recognizable human behavior, as if a writer had spent five minutes making a list of unrelated traits and didn't bother to connect them in any convincing way. Maybe a more experienced actress could have made me feel that there was an actual character behind that facade, but seeing Sophie Aldred, a woman in her mid-20's, jumping up and down while shouting "wicked" and pretending to be a teenager was never going to achieve that, and I felt that Aldred's am-dram emoting and awkward body language didn't help.

 

[Mr Awe]

^ Ace isn't my favorite companion, but she wasn't a failure. I believe the character was supposed to be 17 years old, which explains some of the behavior. Although, I do agree that Aldred may not have been the best actress to portray her.

In my book, Ace is a protoype for the companions of the new series. Her character's background is explored in more detail and there is some development of her character during her time on the show.

Mr Awe

 

[Sindatur]

Ace a failure?

I've always felt that she was more a collection of unrelated character quirks and catchprases than a genuine character with a recognizable human behavior, as if a writer had spent five minutes making a list of unrelated traits and didn't bother to connect them in any convincing way. Maybe a more experienced actress could have made me feel that there was an actual character behind that facade, but seeing Sophie Aldred, a woman in her mid-20's, jumping up and down while shouting "wicked" and pretending to be a teenager was never going to achieve that, and I felt that Aldred's am-dram emoting and awkward body language didn't help.

Eh...I think Sophie Aldred as Ace fit much better than Carol Anne Ford playing Susan, who was written as 10 year old (I could buy her as anywhere from 15-25, but, IMHO, the writers, for most of her run, didn't even write her that old. The Cushing Movies Susan was much closer to the age they wrote her in the show)

 

[DWF]

Ace as awesome and Sophie and McCoy had great chemistry together. Axe taking on the Daleks with a comsically powered bat in Remembrance Of The Daleks is one of my all time favorite Doctor Who scenes.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Ace a failure?

I've always felt that she was more a collection of unrelated character quirks and catchprases than a genuine character with a recognizable human behavior, as if a writer had spent five minutes making a list of unrelated traits and didn't bother to connect them in any convincing way. Maybe a more experienced actress could have made me feel that there was an actual character behind that facade, but seeing Sophie Aldred, a woman in her mid-20's, jumping up and down while shouting "wicked" and pretending to be a teenager was never going to achieve that, and I felt that Aldred's am-dram emoting and awkward body language didn't help.

Eh...I think Sophie Aldred as Ace fit much better than Carol Anne Ford playing Susan, who was written as 10 year old (I could buy her as anywhere from 15-25, but, IMHO, the writers, for most of her run, didn't even write her that old. The Cushing Movies Susan was much closer to the age they wrote her in the show)

What did you think of adult Susan's many adventures paired with McGann in their audio stories?

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Many? I recall three stories - and in one, the Doctor doesn't appear until a while.

That said, I like them a lot - its nice that another incarnation of the Doctor other than the First interacted with her - Five was the only who even aknwoledged her as his granddaughter via a very heartwarming look in The Five Doctors.

 

[Timewalker]

Ace a failure?

I've always felt that she was more a collection of unrelated character quirks and catchprases than a genuine character with a recognizable human behavior, as if a writer had spent five minutes making a list of unrelated traits and didn't bother to connect them in any convincing way. Maybe a more experienced actress could have made me feel that there was an actual character behind that facade, but seeing Sophie Aldred, a woman in her mid-20's, jumping up and down while shouting "wicked" and pretending to be a teenager was never going to achieve that, and I felt that Aldred's am-dram emoting and awkward body language didn't help.

Eh...I think Sophie Aldred as Ace fit much better than Carol Anne Ford playing Susan, who was written as 10 year old (I could buy her as anywhere from 15-25, but, IMHO, the writers, for most of her run, didn't even write her that old. The Cushing Movies Susan was much closer to the age they wrote her in the show)

Susan was written as a teenager. And the Doctor would hardly have left her on Earth in 2164 to marry David Campbell if he considered her a child.

 

[Sindatur]

I've always felt that she was more a collection of unrelated character quirks and catchprases than a genuine character with a recognizable human behavior, as if a writer had spent five minutes making a list of unrelated traits and didn't bother to connect them in any convincing way. Maybe a more experienced actress could have made me feel that there was an actual character behind that facade, but seeing Sophie Aldred, a woman in her mid-20's, jumping up and down while shouting "wicked" and pretending to be a teenager was never going to achieve that, and I felt that Aldred's am-dram emoting and awkward body language didn't help.

Eh...I think Sophie Aldred as Ace fit much better than Carol Anne Ford playing Susan, who was written as 10 year old (I could buy her as anywhere from 15-25, but, IMHO, the writers, for most of her run, didn't even write her that old. The Cushing Movies Susan was much closer to the age they wrote her in the show)

What did you think of adult Susan's many adventures paired with McGann in their audio stories?

I'm not sure I've heard any of her Audios (Is she in the Unbound stories with Bayldon?) But, I love her in The Five Doctors, so, I'm sure I would love any Audio work she does as Susan

Many? I recall three stories - and in one, the Doctor doesn't appear until a while.

That said, I like them a lot - its nice that another incarnation of the Doctor other than the First interacted with her - Five was the only who even aknwoledged her as his granddaughter via a very heartwarming look in The Five Doctors.

I love her, and the interactions with her in The Five Doctors

I've always felt that she was more a collection of unrelated character quirks and catchprases than a genuine character with a recognizable human behavior, as if a writer had spent five minutes making a list of unrelated traits and didn't bother to connect them in any convincing way. Maybe a more experienced actress could have made me feel that there was an actual character behind that facade, but seeing Sophie Aldred, a woman in her mid-20's, jumping up and down while shouting "wicked" and pretending to be a teenager was never going to achieve that, and I felt that Aldred's am-dram emoting and awkward body language didn't help.

Eh...I think Sophie Aldred as Ace fit much better than Carol Anne Ford playing Susan, who was written as 10 year old (I could buy her as anywhere from 15-25, but, IMHO, the writers, for most of her run, didn't even write her that old. The Cushing Movies Susan was much closer to the age they wrote her in the show)

Susan was written as a teenager. And the Doctor would hardly have left her on Earth in 2164 to marry David Campbell if he considered her a child.

Yes, they finally grew her up in her last story and a little bit in The Sensorites, but, most of the rest of the time she knew too much, and was too well travelled to be so "young" in the way she was written/portrayed. This is not to say that there's anything wrong with Carol Anne Ford as an actress. If I recall the story correctly, Carol Anne Ford left because the Character was written too young and screechy. She wanted something more for the character than to be a screaming, scared, prop. I would've been OK with that, but, she specifically stated that Earth 1963 was her favorite place. She had Gallifrey prior to Earth, obviously, plus, in order to pronounce a favorite, I'd think she'd have had to have at least a couple other adventures, if not many, so her Maturity, and emotionally dealing with situations, should have come sooner, IMHO.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Five was the only who even aknwoledged her as his granddaughter via a very heartwarming look in The Five Doctors.

Heartwarming? Davison always looked to me like he was checking her out!

 

[Guy Gardener]

3 is many Tiberius... I thought it was 4, but you didn't count the two specials, so it was 5, although Light at the End is everyone, so it's really only 4.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Ace a failure?

I've always felt that she was more a collection of unrelated character quirks and catchprases than a genuine character with a recognizable human behavior, as if a writer had spent five minutes making a list of unrelated traits and didn't bother to connect them in any convincing way. Maybe a more experienced actress could have made me feel that there was an actual character behind that facade, but seeing Sophie Aldred, a woman in her mid-20's, jumping up and down while shouting "wicked" and pretending to be a teenager was never going to achieve that, and I felt that Aldred's am-dram emoting and awkward body language didn't help.

Eh...I think Sophie Aldred as Ace fit much better than Carol Anne Ford playing Susan, who was written as 10 year old (I could buy her as anywhere from 15-25, but, IMHO, the writers, for most of her run, didn't even write her that old. The Cushing Movies Susan was much closer to the age they wrote her in the show)

Barbara says Susan's 15 in 'The Unearthly Child'.

 

[Sci]

Interchangeable modern companions... far too many stories wouldn't have been much different if there had been a different companion.

The character arcs of the five primary companions of the modern era -- Rose, Martha, Donna, Amy, and Clara -- are so utterly different that I am baffled at how you could claim this.

Rose's is the story of a young woman trapped in poverty who is rescued from her life and shown the universe. It is the story of someone who is often selfish, but whose love drives her to transcend her own worst impulses and dedicate her life to helping and defending others.

Martha's is the story of a woman who feels invisible -- ignored by her family, trying to take care of everyone, feeling unvalued and unloved because of it -- who learns to harness her own power and love herself. She spends so much time hoping the Doctor will love her, yet his faith in her teaches her to love herself and take care of herself in a way she never had before.

Donna's is the story of a woman who feels inferior to everyone she meets and covers it up with bravado, who believes herself a disappointment to her family, who learns to let go of the trappings she had used to cope with life and instead grow as a person, intellectually and emotionally. She learns that she, too, is important, and not because of what man she's marrying or what materialistic things she accumulates.

Amy's is the story of someone obsessed with childhood infatuations -- not just on the Doctor, but on the idea of adventure -- who learns how to grow up. She learns to choose real love (Rory) over infatuation (the Doctor), and to take responsibility for her life by returning to the real world -- without abandoning the love of adventure she had as a child, by virtue of her and Rory living together yet continuing to travel with the Doctor.

Clara's story is still evolving, but it strikes me as the story of a woman who needs to be needed, whose loyalty to those she loves is absolute, but who also sometimes transmutes that loyalty into her own ego as a way to cope with loss. I suspect she has abandonment issues because of her mother's death, and that this is what drove her to put her life on hold to take care of the Mitland children. She needs to be needed, and this is ultimately what keeps bringing her back to the Doctor.

There are certainly parallels to their stories -- especially during the RTD era, one of the primary themes was how traveling with the Doctor prompted the companions to grow and change as people. But they're hardly interchangeable. The only way you could make that argument is if you're refusing to engage them as characters.

Forpetessake, Clara and Rose's families live in the same apartment building!

According to Wikipedia, location used for Clara's family Christmas, Lydstep Flats, was indeed the same location used during Series One and Two for the Powell Estate. That doesn't mean that, in-universe, they're meant to be the same location; in fact, I suspect they're not, since Clara seems to be from the middle class, while Rose and Jackie were very much working-class and impoverished.

 

[NightJim]

I'm still not understanding this. Jamie's immediate replacement as a companion was Liz Shaw. I hope the suggestion wasn't that Jamie's 21st-century descendant become a companion, because I am utterly sick and tired of modern-era companions.

Well, it's not my comment, but I took it to mean that what he was saying was that if Jamie's immediate replacement had been his son (rather than Liz), that would be corny. But the fact that he would be joining the show decades later, with many replacement companions having come and gone in the interim, would stop it being corny.

Obviously this hypothetical son isn't Jamie's immediate replacement, nobody is advocating time-travel for real to replace Liz in the old show! (I hope!)

Bingo!


On the subject of old companions and Nyssa in particular. My Classic Who watching hasn't really caught up to her yet, except for an early viewing of Earthshock, where she was entirely forgettable. She might be another Big Finish did a solid job of doing an improvement on though. At least in The Mutant Phase she came across as a pretty competent Engineer fitting into the same mold as Liz as the intelligent companion who can slightly keep up with the Doctor.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Ace as awesome and Sophie and McCoy had great chemistry together. Axe taking on the Daleks with a comsically powered bat in Remembrance Of The Daleks is one of my all time favorite Doctor Who scenes.

Wicked!

On the subject of old companions and Nyssa in particular. My Classic Who watching hasn't really caught up to her yet, except for an early viewing of Earthshock, where she was entirely forgettable. She might be another Big Finish did a solid job of doing an improvement on though. At least in The Mutant Phase she came across as a pretty competent Engineer fitting into the same mold as Liz as the intelligent companion who can slightly keep up with the Doctor.

Nyssa is a nice girl. She's kind-hearted, a good friend and she's always ready to help her friends. She's also fairly competent and knowledgeable. In the real world, I'm sure she would be a joy to be around. As a fictional character, though, she's rubbish. She's as bland and boring as it gets, nothing makes her tick, she has no ambitions of her own, no idiosyncrasies and no memorable traits apart from her being nice.