Jem'Hadar attack ship, fighter, warship, or bug?

[t_smitts]

You know the ship I'm talking about. The beetle-shaped ship that formed the backbone of the Dominion fleet since their first appearance. The one that rammed the Odyssey. The one that Sisko and co. captured on Torga IV and later used to destroy a White facility.

Unfortunately, DS9 seemed to be notoriously inconsistent in what it called this ship. Sometimes it was an attack ship, sometimes it was a fighter, sometimes a warship. I for one, preferred it being an attack ship, even though that was one of the less-frequently used terms. The ship is WAY too big to be considered a fighter and too small, really, to be called a warship.

What do you think?

 

[Richard Baker]

I voted 'Attack Ship'.
IMO it is far too large for a Fighter, too small for a Warship and I think Attack ship is just as good as 'something else' somebody could come up with.

 

[Richard Baker]

Double post

 

[Jono]

RPGs in the 2000s hammered it as the "attack ship" into my head, so it's what I tend to use. Don't have an issue with people using "fighter" as it is still obvious what they mean. "Warship" is too generic so if it is used I'd have to ask what ship they are referring to.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

You know the ship I'm talking about. The beetle-shaped ship that formed the backbone of the Dominion fleet since their first appearance. The one that rammed the Odyssey. The one that Sisko and co. captured on Torga IV and later used to destroy a White facility.

Unfortunately, DS9 seemed to be notoriously inconsistent in what it called this ship. Sometimes it was an attack ship, sometimes it was a fighter, sometimes a warship. I for one, preferred it being an attack ship, even though that was one of the less-frequently used terms. The ship is WAY too big to be considered a fighter and too small, really, to be called a warship.

What do you think?

I picked attack ship as I think that they resembled FACs, much like the PT boats or other small, fast naval craft.

 

[USS KG5]

Attack Ship.

The fact the backbone of their fleet was so disposable in combat fitted very well with the Jem H'adar I always thought

 

[Spot261]

Attack ship, seemed the most common nonclementure throughout the show. It's much bigger than other fighters we see whilst non quite being big enough to be a small starship

 

[Timo]

One wonders what "attack" means in the context. Starfleet's smallest craft were specifically called "attack fighters" - what other sort are there? Defense fighters? Pursuit fighters? Reconnaissance fighters? Diplomatic fighters?

Today's military aviation terminology offers little help. "Attack fighter" would be an oxymoron, because "attack" refers to air-to-ground action and "fighter" is for air-to-air. But perhaps the very craft is an oxymoron unit, much like the F/A-18 Hornet indeed is an attack fighter in practice, burdened with two tasks that should be mutually exclusive. Does the name then indicate that purebred fightercraft and attack craft still remain, since Starfleet hasn't hidden the dichotomy under some more generic designation?

Today's naval terminology in turn creates an interesting contrast. While an attack aircraft is intended to survive its mission, anything with "attack" in naval warfare tends to be for suicidal action, for challenging one's betters in an affordable (that is, inexpensively expendable) fashion - say, "fast attack craft". Except for the "attack submarine", which is the undersea equivalent of a fighter or a main battle tank, a powerful unit intended for survivably fighting its peers and slaughtering everybody else.

What the Jem'Hadar mostly do is literally "attack", I guess. I mean, what they mostly do is patrol the vast Dominion, which has been in peace (or at least without respectable rivals) for thousands of years - but the patrolling seems to take the exclusive form of punitive expeditions and not of constant presence. Indeed, any presence you see is supposed to be your last, per Gamma Quadrant witness statements. I wonder if the attack ships aren't supposed to be cloaking-capable all, just like the troopers, so that a Dominion subject can never rest assured the Jem'Hadar aren't there watching out for the slightest signs of dissent... It's just that, just as with the troopers, the invisibility plays no role in the actual attack, and would indeed be highly counterproductive there, so the Dominion War involves none of that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[marsh8472]

I'll go with warship since no one's voted for that one yet. It has been referenced as a warship a higher number of times by my count. Although it is referred to as a fighter in more episodes

Jem'Hadar attack ship - said 6 times in 6 episodes
Jem'Hadar fighter - said 11 times in 9 episodes
Jem'Hadar warship - said 13 times in 7 episodes
Jem'Hadar patrol ship - said 1 time in 1 episode

A Time To Stand
DAX: It's a Jem'Hadar attack ship.

Blaze of Glory
SISKO: Suit yourself. Maybe it's nothing. It is hard to get an accurate sensor reading in the Badlands. But unless I'm mistaken, two Jem'Hadar warships are headed our way.
EDDINGTON: Yeah, those are Jem'Hadar warships all right. You've got a problem.

Far Beyond The Stars
KIRA: Patrolling the Cardassian borders is getting more and more dangerous. You never know when you're going to run into a squadron of Jem'Hadar fighters.
SISKO: I realise that, but the Dominion is getting bolder and bolder, and your freighter is no match for a Jem'Hadar attack ship.

Field of Fire
BASHIR: I was speaking metaphorically. This inspired cherub masterfully piloted the Defiant into battle against a half dozen Jem'Hadar attack ships, and once all the smoke had cleared, only one ship remained intact, and that, ladies and gentlemen, was the USS Defiant.

In Purgatory's Shadow
GARAK: Well I certainly don't want to take an unnecessary risk, but our sensors show no sign of Jem'Hadar warships in this area.

Rocks And Shoals
Captain's log, supplemental. O'Brien needed three days to restore main power to our commandeered Dominion ship, but he's not going to get them. Sensors have detected two Jem'Hadar fighters heading our way, and without main power our chances of survival are slim to none.

Sons And Daughters
ALEXANDER: Jem'Hadar attack ship bearing one seven zero mark zero four five. Estimated weapons range in twenty two seconds.

Tears Of The Prophets
SISKO: Five squadrons of Jem'Hadar attack ships. At the moment, that's the entire Dominion fleet protecting the Chin'toka system.
KIRA: Jem'Hadar fighters approaching, bearing zero five nine mark zero three one.
MARTOK [OC]: My attack wing is closest to those Jem'Hadar fighters. Preparing to engage.

Treachery, Faith and the Great River
DAMAR: I don't know what you're so concerned about. Odo couldn't possibly hope to outrun a Jem'Hadar attack ship.
DAMAR: I don't understand it. How could a runabout destroy a Jem'Hadar fighter?

The Die Is Cast
PILOT: Jem'Hadar fighters.
KIRA: The third Jem'Hadar fighter is still pursuing.

Valiant
NOG: Not in a runabout we're not. We're no match for a wing of Jem'Hadar fighters.

Once More Unto The Breach
KOLANA: Their warp signatures are bearing directly astern. They're Jem'Hadar fighters and they appear to be pursuing us.

Soldiers of the Empire
WORF [OC]: Alert status one. A Jem'Hadar patrol ship is directly ahead. Prepare for combat operations.
MARTOK: There are probably five Jem'Hadar warships out there right now just waiting for us to cross the border.
TAVANA: Tactical alert! Tactical alert! There is a Jem'Hadar warship bearing one eight zero mark two one five. They will be within weapons range in nine minutes.

Starship Down
CARSON: Two ships have just entered sensor range. They're Jem'Hadar warships.

Tacking Into The Wind
GARAK: And according to our new contact on Kelvas Five, the Breen will begin to install their energy dampening weapons aboard Jem'Hadar fighters within a week.

Penumbra
EZRI: They're Jem'Hadar fighters.

The Search, part 1
O'BRIEN: Commander, long range scanners have picked up two Jem'Hadar warships directly ahead. They're heading this way at warp five.
BASHIR: Commander, three more Jem'Hadar warships approaching off the port bow!

The Ship
WORF: A warship. A Jem'Hadar warship.
HOYA [OC]: A Jem'Hadar warship
DAX: Chief, structurally, a lot about this ship's design matches the other Jem'Hadar warships we've seen.

To The Death
WORF: A Jem'Hadar warship. This can't be the vessel we're looking for. Major Kira said the Jem'Hadar strike team that attacked the station used a transport ship.
SISKO: Why do you need my help? You could send a whole fleet of Jem'Hadar warships after them.

 

[Will M.]

Based on naval nomenclature I'd call it a Destroyer

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

How many different sizes of Jem'Hadar ships are there, anyway? There's at least two: the "whatever the hell we're talking about in this thread" version that we usually see, and a larger starship-sized version. I could have sworn there's a third variant that's even larger...

 

[Jono]

How many different sizes of Jem'Hadar ships are there, anyway? There's at least two: the "whatever the hell we're talking about in this thread" version that we usually see, and a larger starship-sized version. I could have sworn there's a third variant that's even larger...

The battleship that the dumbass crew of the Valiant thought they could take on in "Valiant".

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Yeah, I thought that one was the "even larger" version I was thinking of, like a dreadnought. Can anyone confirm?

 

[Jono]

We see 2 or three of the battleships from "Valiant" in orbit of Cardassia during the Dominion's last stand and compared to the other ships they look significantly bigger than the twice the size of the Galaxy figure quoted in "Valiant". This caused the speculation that this was another class and was labelled by some fans as a "Dreadnought". I haven't seen any backstage info that suggest this was intended. It is likely simply just another case of Trek's at times wonky scaling.

 

[Timo]

One might easily argue that the battleships defending Cardassia aren't any bigger than usual, it's the Breen ships in front of them that are smaller than usual! After all, VOY "Scorpion" would have us believe that Breen ships are famed for their biotech - perhaps they start out small?

There are four distinct designs of Jem'Hadar fighting vessel, not counting subtle differences between physical and CGI models of the "same" ship. There's the Bug, at more or less consistent scale (smaller than the Defiant in every respect, so quite possibly warranting a name analogous to today's Fast Attack Craft rather than anything respectable like Corvette). Then there are two types of the Cruiser, with upper and lower banana nacelles but differently shaped and detailed hulls - a case of physical/CGI model mismatch that might be too great for us to ignore. And then there's the Battleship.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[marsh8472]

I realized another indicator to use is the number of different people that said each type of ship. Warship has the edge there too. Damar references the same ship as an "attack ship" and "fighter" in the same episode which can be an indication that "attack ship" and "fighter" are the same ship but the words can be used interchangeably. Damar is also the only source from the dominion that has used these words. Actually in the series they've usually said "Jem'Hadar ship" or "Jem'Hadar vessel" the most when referring to the ships but I didn't count those.

Jem'Hadar attack ship - said 6 times in 6 episodes by 5 people
Jadzia Dax
SISKO
BASHIR
ALEXANDER
DAMAR

Jem'Hadar fighter - said 11 times in 9 episodes by 9 people
KIRA
SISKO
MARTOK
DAMAR
Romulan Pilot
NOG
KOLANA
GARAK
EZRI Dax

Jem'Hadar warship - said 13 times in 7 episodes by 11 people
SISKO
EDDINGTON
GARAK
MARTOK
TAVANA
CARSON
O'BRIEN
BASHIR
WORF
HOYA
Jadzia Dax

Jem'Hadar patrol ship - said 1 time in 1 episode by 1 person
WORF


Here's random images I found online.

 

[Timo]

The lower comparison pic exaggerates the Defiant and the bugship and sells the Excelsior short, both in one-on-one terms and wrt the Galaxy benchmark - we have seen plenty of close encounters between these specific ship types so we can tell. Nothing much wrong with the sizes of the big Dominion ships, though.

I agree that Damar would be our most reliable and knowledgeable source to Dominion ship terminology: the others are just foreigners, enemies and second-hand sources. Since both of the expressions Damar uses predate his contact with the Dominion, though, we can't outright argue that he's speaking fluent Dominionese there. But he would be exceptionally qualified to pick those Starfleet expressions that are factually the most appropriate.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[marsh8472]

total google results

"Jem'Hadar Fighter" - 10,500 results
"Jem'Hadar Attack Ship" - 9,740 results
"Jem'Hadar Warship" - 2,990 results
"Jem'Hadar patrol ship" - 315 results

 

[marsh8472]

It's probably a phenomena like this

For me I've heard it mostly called bubbler but I just happened to live in that little green area most of my life. Most people don't call it a bubbler.

 

[Spot261]

You know, all these years and I never once noticed a water fountain at Ch'intoka.